No, but you can bet they lost their main source of money, when they had to cut ties to RU.
1 Like
Well, no one expects that they support it from day 0. Rather, we should hope that it won’t be day 365 or so, like it was the case with the 10 III.
Similarity between those two models doesn’t have to guarantee that it will be much easier or faster to support them both, because what plays an important role is Sony binaries. If binaries for the 10 IV and 10 V differ substantially (e.g. due to being made by different teams, based on different code, thus possibly having different bugs and issues) it may be just as laborious (to both port the OS, and then maintain it) as in case of completely different models…
Also note, that Sony binaries for the 10 IV were first released by Sony as Android 12 based (and only updated to Android 13 literally a few months ago), so that Android 12 based version might have been used by Jolla to base their SFOS port on it. Whereas the 10 V binaries will be Android 13 based. This single difference alone would probably make support for those two models two completely separate projects…
Let’s be serious… If one wants to buy it cheaper when stores sell it out after a new model is launched, one can just wait for it, it doesn’t take Jolla to delay introducing their support for it to happen.
For me it was a real struggle to buy it first hand in July 2022, I bought literally one of the last units available in my country in normal stores (rather than some shady ones and auction portals), and only because a helpful helpline person told me to watch the availability in the middle of the night when they made the last few units available for sale (which all disappeared within literally a few minutes).
Lastly, once again, it is not only a matter of just “releasing support” for one model or two. It is (maybe first of all) a matter of MAINTAINING it then, i.e. dealing with all their unique bugs, issues, etc. In case of two models it means two devices to maintain over the next period of time, rather than one. Having to split their limited resources like that simply translates to LESS time and care for each of those models than what they could provide to a single model.
As I wrote, despite three updates from Sony of their AOSP binaries for the 10 III released in 2022 and 2023 past the one that SFOS uses (from February 2022), which are said to bring some fixes and improvements, none of them is supported, so Jolla clearly lack time and manpower to deal with it. So how will it look with two more models?
If indeed - thanks to similarities between the 10 IV and V - it will be easier and quicker to introduce support for the 10 V based on the work possibly already done for the 10 IV, I would actually skip the 10 IV anyway, just in order to not have to support two new models simultaneously rather than just one, which would further halve the amount of time and care each model would then be getting.
Seriously: what would be the point of supporting two almost identical devices, one of which is just going to stop shipping? Only to satisfy some 20 or maybe 30 people who bought it “in hope it would be supported”? While with no doubt morally noble, does it really justify (and make it economically viable) having to maintain it then over the next couple of years just for that handful of people, whereas very soon almost everyone else will be buying the new 10 V ?
2 Likes
Originally, this slim operating system should be installable on different hardware and numerous devices.
Currently SFOS runs on a very limited number of devices, which prevents a growing community and new end users.
It appears that clean code no longer exists and the effort to fix bugs has halted further development. Is SFOS programmed to death or was the clean code taken exclusively from Rostelecom to RU?
I’m really hoping for a port to the Xperia 10 IV, which is slumbering on my shelf. Would be nice to sail again and in the meantime I use the Volla22 with UT20.04.
2 Likes
In other words, the only argument of those who hope for the 10 IV port is that they took the risk, bought the 10 IV and now don’t know what to do with it. So it is entirely subjective, not taking into account what would be better for future SFOS development and popularity. Or actually maybe even against it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
5 Likes
I think the question is not what device you or I want but what makes sense to Jolla, if they already started work on their 10iv port because they need a newer device soon then throwing that work out because the 10v was announced and they will be able to start work on that platform somewhere in the next 6 month probably doesn’t make sense.
As for your remarks on Sony binaries Jolla has been atrocious about getting newer binary bases into their images and I don’t expect that to change, if you want secure up-to-date firmware then past experience with Jolla really raises serious questions if they are the right fit.
Personally I have been with Jolla since they were still at nokia and I would like nothing more than to see them succeed but I have serious concerns about ther longevity given the maturation of other more true FOSS mobile platforms and Jollas difficult relationship with OSS, Android App Support is the only thing keeping me here at the moment and it has rapidly maturing FOSS counterparts.
3 Likes
As I wrote, to be honest I do not want any device now or in any foreseeable future. My 10 III is only 10 months old, with not even a single scratch, and neither the 10 IV nor the 10 V offer literally anything worth paying for that my 10 III wouldn’t have.
If so, then what makes sense? Sacrifice even more months to complete that work, and then be obliged to maintain support for that device over the next years, and all that for literally a HANDFUL of people who bought the 10 IV, i.e. a handful of licences those people would buy? Please see the “10 IV support” thread for how many such people there are, literally a handful. And now that the 10 V has been announced and starts shipping in early June, and it is a better device than the 10 IV (much better camera, 8 GB RAM, stereo speakers, etc.), even less people will be buying the 10 IV, if at all. At least if I had to choose now, I would choose the 10 V without hesitation, even if I had to pay more for it. So, what sense it makes and for who? How much (in terms of money) can Jolla benefit from 10 IV licences? A few thousand euros?
The date of first release of 10 III binaries was Sept 2021, i.e. 3 months after it started shipping in June 2021. Why in your opinion would it now take twice longer (other than Jolla sacrificing time for the 10 IV port and because of that not having resources to promptly start work on the 10 V port)?
Totally hear you on that I was in the same boat with the Xperia X vs the XA2 and 10.
The 10v has been announced, it’s expected shipping date is in June, thus if it again takes 3 month for binaries to be released the earliest Jolla can hope to be able to work on the 10v is in September (which is 4-5 month from now) and that is starting the work not being at some advanced stage.
I think you are missing the point of what a new device means for Jolla, it is not about license sale and hasn’t been about license sale for several years now, the reason a new device is added is that a newer development platform is needed, now since the 10iii is as far as I understand from you not mature and development for the 10iii seems to have allowed major improvements for all hardware since the XA2 it could be that Jolla can continue with just the 10iii for a while and therefore no work was started on a newer platform but it could also be that Jolla does feel it needs a newer platform and has already been working on that move for a while in which case I doubt that it makes sense for them to stop now and wait for the next platform to be available for development.
Irrespective of the above I doubt that the size of a forumtopic is a great metric whether or not to support a device by that token we should have gotten 1 or 5 series devices by now and there are also always people who are not vocal in either direction or even vocal against (like I was in the past) who then break their phone and buy the newest supported device (the rough story how I got my 10ii).
2 Likes
I think it depends on if they have started the work and how far along they are. If they are almost done - sure, go for it. If they haven’t started then, nah leave it. But I guess you have looked at the three to four different threads that have been opened about the 10IV? If finished soon, or there is an announcement the 10 IV will be supported, there will still be plenty of time to get a hold of an Xperia 10 IV. In Sweden they still sell both the 10 III and 10 IV in stores. Most phone companies do not sell the 10 III anymore but still ship the 10 IV at a decent price. People wanting Sailfish OS would probably be able to get a hold of a 10 IV for a while still.
Most probably. But I think the other argument is “consistency”. Anyway, wanting an answer isn’t wrong, is it?
There are some great problems with SFOS but it is the best Linux mobile phone OS out there at the moment, at least last I tried the others. It is more fun to use than Android and the private OSs built on that and much nicer than Ubuntu Touch last I tried that. Also, it works extremely well for me to use it as a daily driver. Feels like quite a lot is required to make SFOS stay alive. But there are still great updates coming out, at least I have enjoyed the last ones. But I digress.
On topic: my phone is old and slow and I would like to upgrade it. Choosing a 10 III when it costs as much as a 10 IV doesn’t really make sense to me. But 10 III is the last supported phone. So the question remains: 10 IV or 10 V? How about neither?
What I mainly want is an early announcement of what phones they will officially support. In 8 days we will probably get some kind of answer about the 10 IV.
2 Likes
I am not seeing any advantage of the iv versus iii. Dual SIM is a must for me so iv seems to be excluded. I am not seeing much reason to go to a v either as SFOS will likely not take much advantage of all that camera hardware.
I don’t understand the discussion between IV and V.
When the IV is flashed to Android 13 I see little difference. The processor is definitely the same. The camera functions are not fully exploited by SFOS anyway and the display/resolution shouldn’t be a big problem. The kernel for the V should therefore also run on the IV.
If SFOS requires so much development work to accommodate these small differences, then the point of Linux development has apparently been lost.
I remember the Indian Aquafish, which you could buy including SFOS. So that more users would switch to SFOS, there should also be current devices on the market that can be flashed to SFOS. The only example I know of is the VollaPhone, which can be easily flashed to SFOS with ubPorts.
After my XA2 had reached its end in Dec 2022, I was hoping with the upcoming update to support a newer model, as has always been the case in the past. The Xperia II was definitely too old for a new cell phone and the Xperia III still had a lot of bugs to contend with. Perhaps you also think of the people who bought an IV in anticipation and hope of the announced update to 4.5 and support for a new device.
A new device means for Jolla time and resources needed to maintain it (prepare and release updates, handle that device’s specific bugs and issues, etc) over the next couple of years. This is not a one-shot problem. Their resources are quite limited, so if they decide to additionally support device X it’ll basically mean that it will persistently engage some resources which could otherwise be used for device Y. In other words, device Y will then be getting less time and care than what it would get otherwise, with obvious consequences for its development and quality of its support. So they need to choose quite carefully what to support and what to skip, so that it outweighs all the costs of doing so.
If it needs a NEW platform then what is the right candidate for it? Not for just now, but for the next year or two. A device to disappear from the stores within a month or two, or a freshly announced (and better) device which will be easily available at least by mid 2024? If they already started working on the 10 IV port, then maybe they should consider dumping it, especially if their work is based on 10 IV’s Android 12 binaries, whereas binaries for the 10 V will be Android 13 based, which means that the development could not be unified then. Sometimes it takes making some brave decisions rather than get bogged down with something.
I’m quite sure that those who bought the 10 IV “in hope that Jolla would support it” are mostly (or maybe exclusively) advanced users and active community members. I somehow can’t imagine a novice person, not visiting this forum, to not only make such decisions but actually even know things like that the 10 IV might potentially be supported. Therefore, I think that in this case the forum topic does reflect the actual scale of interest, or at least shows the proportions.
Regardless of that, I think it is clear anyway that only a handful of existing SFOS users have the 10 IV at this point. This might change, if Jolla managed to announce supporting that model within the next month or so, i.e. as long as it is still buyable. In such case, some people might decide to buy it. Then, it just won’t be easily reachable, at least first hand. Still, with the 10 V to be available soon and being a better device (8 GB RAM, much better cameras, stereo speakers, and some more), i.e. while having a choice between the IV and the V, I do not think that there will be too many people choosing the 10 IV over the V, for not much less.
Not just that. But also whether their 10 IV work is based on Android 12 binaries, whereas the 10 V binaries will be Android 13 based. It may be too costly (resource-wise) to support both devices in such case, as there may not be too much to reuse between them, despite hardware similarities.
But it is not just “go for it”. It is “keep providing support for it over the next 5 years or so”. That’s the actual weight of the problem.
But what for? In order not to get hold of the quite better 10 V not much later, as if one shells out a couple hundred euros for the IV now then most people won’t be able to do it again a few months later? Why would one want to buy the 10 IV and not the 10 V? To save some 50 euros but trade better camera, stereo speakers and 8 GB RAM for it?
Of course not. But the answers do not come. Jolla has never been too talkative with such things.
Due to some decisions from the past, SFOS has to rely on Sony AOSP binaries. With all the consequences. The most serious issues often originate from that layer (e.g. the echo, color banding or power drain problems of the 10 III) and Jolla can do sh*t about it.
I’m sorry but IMO it is not a matter of compassion or “thinking about people”. It should be a matter of making right strategic decisions which will keep Jolla alive, as otherwise in the near future there may be no SFOS not just for the 10 IV but at all.
If I hear that they don’t have enough resources to e.g. work on VoWiFi support, or if I see how it’s been more than a year with no perceptible progress with the Camera2 API, I get the picture of how tight on resources they are. So this really needs doing the right choices and involving those resources solely with what the platform will really benefit from.
5 Likes
I’m sorry I think I was not clear enough in what I said, phones are not Jolla’s primary business, new devices are new demo platforms for their technology as well as provide the vendors who want to use SFOS/Android App Support with a supported hardware platform (ie. chipset etc. that they can use).
License buyers like you and me are basically beta testers for Jolla who also bring in a minor amount of money.
The question if a new platform will be adopted probably depends on the EOL status of the Snapdragon 690 and upcoming devices.
3 Likes
I think your line of argument is quite solid and I more or less agree with you. But to answer the following question:
A year after the release of the 10 IV, the 10 III is still in stores. Maybe, during certain periods before, during and after the release of the 10 V the 10 IV will be on sale and thus making it a lot cheaper than the 10 V.
By the way, talking about the problems with the 10 III:
I think I remember, if I am not mistaken, this same discussion when the 10 II port was released and some people with Xperia 10 complained that they shouldn’t start with a new phone until that one was working. Were things sorted out for the Xperia 10?
Probably it is better to support the 10V, I just hope to get an answer on the next community meeting.
2 Likes
i think we’re fast approaching the point where Jolla need to tell us what their plan is for the next supported phone, even if that is no more than to tell us that the 10iv won’t be…
If so, then wouldn’t the shiny new 10 V be a better technology demo platform than the old 10 IV? Wouldn’t it be saying: “look, our technology works on the very latest devices!” On the other hand, as a demo platform to showcase how Android support works, now that the 10 IV no longer is the latest model, what benefit does it offer vs. 10 III? If none, then why bother with it at all, rather than keep demoing the technology on the 10 III until they can switch over to the latest and greatest 10 V?
If so then this is actually yet another reason not to bother with the 10 IV, especially if their port would be based on Android 12 binaries, not helpful then with the 10 V development.
Really? Where? Definitely not in Poland where even in July 2022 it was really hard to buy it. I mean reputable stores, not auction portals selling allegedly “post-test” or “post-exhibition” units without boxes and with “tiny scratches resulting from tests, not in any way affecting the usage”. No known and reputable store brand had a single 10 III unit since July 2022 here in Poland.
In July 2022, while the 10 IV was already shipping and available everywhere for some 2000 Polish Zloty, I had to pay for the 10 III 1849 Polish Zloty (i.e. 92% of 10 IV’s price) , which was around 380-390 Euros or so. And even at that price they were disappearing at sight. So I would not count on the 10 IV ever becoming “a lot cheaper” than the 10 V, at least in my country. The 10 III never was.
I don’t know about Xperia 10, but the 10 II support is probably the most polished of all, including all 3 cameras working and other things like that.
In late 2013 Jolla asked the community if they would like to have support for paid applications. That question (on TJC) was so popular that the thread ended up as 3rd most voted for ever. Guess what, that was the last time we’ve heard from Jolla on this topic. So I wouldn’t hold my breath when it comes to their communication with us.
4 Likes
My point is that if Jolla needs a new demo platform already and already started that work then their need is for the immediate future and not for the timeframe in which they can get a working 10v.
It could also be that they don’t need a new platform and haven’t started work on this yet in which case using the 10v may be the more likely path and it could also be that they don’t need a new platform for longer because they now figured out how to imoprove the App Support Layer across the whole device stack and the next device supported will be the 10vi or something else.
1 Like
But now there seems to be only one left in the whole Kingdom of Sweden. The other day there were a few that you could order online. But sure, the price is only 50-60€ below the 10 IV.
I would be glad to know if there will be a new supported device at all.
2 Likes
I would really like if there Isn’t to be honest.
10 III should be fine for the next 2-3 years and I would really like to have the software complimenting the hardware, not unused hardware with buggy software.
2 Likes
which is fine in principal - and i too would love a bug free 10iii - but who’s funding that continued development if there are no supported phones to buy licences for?
i understand the argument that jolla’s main revenue stream is android support for automotive, but i don’t accept that its worth keeping a loss making mobile division going just to they can make dollar on car touchscreens.
it needs to fund itself, which means it needs devices available on the market that can generate SFOS licence revenue.
1 Like