I don’t know. But what I know for sure there will be -1 person in a future if IV port will be skipped
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If you want to raise a new topic you should probably follow the prescribed template for new topics. My topic is about the 10 IV.
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I do NOT want to raise a new topic. I already explained why I considered this topic appropriate to express my opinion, and that’s it from me.
nor actually ever referred to with a single word
That is not true.
https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2023/sailfishos-meeting.2023-03-30-08.00.log.html
08:06:32 #info Sony Xperia 10 IV is plausible candidate for the officially supported Sailfish X device.
Anyway, I don’t see the point to discussing the topic here.
I meant some official statements, not loose discussion on IRC. Besides, a “plausible candidate” actually means nothing, especially if followed by “not anytime soon”. Anyway, I guess that you should expect an answer from the author of that statement.
Well for myself I would also really like to have an official Port of SFOS for the Xperia IV. Anyway, why do we always need to make a long discussion with the same arguments about that topic in other threads? @martinbook85 asked the question to @Jolla for getting an update about this topic. I think if you have concerns or whatever this can be discussed in the thread Xperia 1 IV, 5 IV and 10 IV support This would be more efficient if all related discussions and informations are located in one topic. Last but not least, the Xperia 10 V is also not in the Open Device Program.
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But it is 99,9% certain that it’ll be, not only because every previous model in the “10” series was, but also because Sony’s smartphone offer is now limited to just the “1”, “5” and “10” series, i.e. not leaving much choice. The 10 V was announced only 2 days ago, so no wonder it is not listed yet.
I was talking about supporting the 10 V, not the 10 IV, so I do not find the “10 IV support” thread appropriate. As opposed to this thread, which is meant to suggest topics to discuss during the upcoming community meeting (that I sadly won’t be able to attend), and I consider this an important subject to discuss now that the 10 V has just been announced on Thursday.
OK, so just because you (and a few other people) bought a device that Jolla never ever promised to support (nor actually ever referred to with a single word) and which is being replaced with a new model as we speak, you are now expecting them to support it specially for you (and a few other people) rather than focus their tiny resources on what is obviously much better for the future of SFOS, i.e. the just introduced new model which will be easily available in the next 1-1,5 years. And you think it would be a good decision from Jolla’s strategic business point of view and the future of SFOS. Well, what can I say.
Anyway, as the 10 V is clearly based on the very same SoC as the 10 IV, I guess it wouldn’t impose much problems to THEN back-port SFOS from 10 V to 10 IV, should Jolla find enough time and resources for it (and consider it economically viable). But it should be in this order (i.e. the 10 V first, and then possibly the 10 IV) and not vice versa (just like VoLTE support was first introduced for the 10 III and then for the 10 II), or else in May 2024 we’ll have an identical problem.
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This has been said before, but might be worth repeating in this thread:
There is generally very late information on whatever the next supported device will be. Therefore it has become expected that the next device will be the next midrange phone from Sony’s Xperia line. Jolla’s customers knowing this, therefore buy those phones when they are on sale or can be bought at a low price.
If Jolla would come out now and say that they for sure will support the 10V and not the 10IV, it will be easier to plan ahead. We who have bought a 10IV will be able to sell it and wait for a good price on a 10V.
I understand that there probably are several reasons for Jolla not to be able to inform beforehand, but it would be highly desirable that Jolla finds a way to announce early what phones will be supported.
It is mentioned that 10III, IV and V are very similar in specs, isn’t there then quite much code that can be reused? Speaking about Camera2 API, that will be needed for all three, right? The snapdragon 695 (?) is the same for both IV and V, doesn’t that mean that the same drivers can be used? Isn’t then all the work done on a port for 10IV beneficial for a future port for the 10V?
I am not a programmer and might be entirely wrong.
The IV and V are almost identical (the only major difference being new camera of the 10 V and bigger RAM in the 8 GB version), whereas the III has a different chipset.
Well, but apparently not only that. Note how even without Camera2 API all three cameras are supported on the 10 II but not on the 10 III… So there’s something more to it.
As I already wrote, it’s not that they will just release support for the 10 IV and “that’s it”, and then they can just move on to supporting the 10 V. The very moment they decide to support the 10 IV they will get a set of 10 IV’s unique issues and problems to struggle with (including all those resulting from Sony binaries) and will have to deal with them for as long as that device is supported. Note how after almost 1,5 years 10 III’s major issues still remain unfixed. So the decision to support the 10 IV will NOT be a one-time operation but it will PERMANENTLY consume some portion of Jolla’s limited resources, which could otherwise be spent on supporting the 10 V.
No matter how similar two different devices are, I guess you’ll be able to imagine how much work is still needed to support them if you realize that even supporting a new version of Sony binaries for THE SAME device apparently needs more work than Jolla can sacrifice. Sony binaries for the 10 III were updated by Sony SIX times, including three times after the version that is used by SFOS. The newer versions are said to fix the color banding and echo (and possibly also power drain) but it apparently takes too much work to use them in SFOS which is stuck at version from February 2022. See binaries named “Lena” on the Sony Open Devices site: https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/downloads/software-binaries/
So, if it is clearly too difficult and/or time consuming to even just support new versions for THE SAME device, I guess that any discussion about just “reusing” code or “all the work already done” between TWO DIFFERENT devices (no matter how similar) is rather pointless.
Adding support for two new devices, rather than one, will simply mean having to share Jolla’s precious limited resources between two devices.
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You make a strong case. I think your suggested way is the better route to take for Jolla…
I think Jolla for sure should make the necessary modifications to make the 10III a good device as that is a promise they made when announcing an official port.
They haven’t made a promise to me to support the 10IV so I can’t really be mad at them for not making an official port, if they decide not to. Still want an answer, though.
Maybe ‘we’ should post a question to the community meeting if Jolla can try to announce official ports in time for people to buy the device.
- Xperia X - 2016 - SFOS 2.1.2 - 2017/09
- Xperia XA2 - 2018/01 - SFOS 3.0.0 - 2018/10
- Xperia 10 - 2019/02 - SFOS 3.2.0 - 2019/10
- Xperia 10ii - 2020/02 - SFOS 4.1.0 - 2021/05
- Xperia 10iii - 2021/04 - SFOS 4.4.0 - 2022/03
- Xperia 10iv - 2022/05 - N/A
- Xperia 10v - 2023/05 - N/A
Historically speaking Jolla added a new device to the supported list approximately every year, most often within a month or two of the announcement of the next generation of Sony devices (and well within the time slot that the announce date was already known and plenty of rumours available).
When Sony releases a device it is also not immediately available on their Open Device program so even if Jolla wanted they can’t support the 10v from day 0.
Based on the past it is very likely that the 10iv will be added soon but not a certainty and at this point not something Jolla has committed to, that being said it could be that due to the very high similarity between the 10iv and the 10v support for the 10v will be added faster than in previous cycles.
As for the point about availability, to me the fact that support usually only became daily driver ready well after the newer generation was being sold meant that the previous generation (latest SFOS supported device) was available for a much lower price (new!) on many bigger online stores.
On the other hand I would also not be surprised if Jolla choses to skip one or more generations now, SFOS on consumer phones is not their target market and I suspect the main driver for adding a new device every once in a while is the need for a more modern test/demo platform to show off more modern Android compatibility.
Either way if the 10iv was planned (but not announced) then they are probably already working on that for a while and that work won’t be thrown out by skipping the device, if on the other hand they have not yet started work on 10iv support skipping that device would seem to make a lot more sense.
Sources:
gsmarena for device announce dates.
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you can’t base on the past this time.
2022 was very different fo J
from the perspective of a 10iii user - i’m looking at a 10v as the next puchase.
i always run two phone, newer xperia running on android for finance apps i don’t necessarily want to carry aound with me, and the prior version that runs SFOS as a daily driver.
nothing against a 10iv port if jolla consider it viable commercially, but can’t help but notice that it has already been superceded, and will likely be hard to source by the time any sfos port might arrive. therefore limited revenue potential for Jolla.
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Looking at this:
I’m frankly struck that neither the 10iv nor the 10v look particularly attractive vs the 10iii - in terms of hardware.
Disappointed in:
The downgrade of USB 3.1 to USB 2.0 for file transfers.
The lack of Wifi6 in not only the 10iv, but now also the 10v!
The lack of high refresh in the 10iv and 10v. Not even 90Hz, really?
The small upgrades the 10v does get to battery and memory don’t seem enough to justify the enormous price increase from the 10iii/iv (euro330) to the 10v (euro450).
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You have insider info?
2020 was also bad and they skipped that year, though looking from the outside and following the IRC discussions every once in a while it doesn’t seem to me that any year other than the very first year (with the JP1/kickstarter) can be classified as good…
They always lack manpower/money/you name it but are never able to involve the community more and become more OSS.
The business focus switched to selling Android App Support a few years ago.
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No, but you can bet they lost their main source of money, when they had to cut ties to RU.
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Well, no one expects that they support it from day 0. Rather, we should hope that it won’t be day 365 or so, like it was the case with the 10 III.
Similarity between those two models doesn’t have to guarantee that it will be much easier or faster to support them both, because what plays an important role is Sony binaries. If binaries for the 10 IV and 10 V differ substantially (e.g. due to being made by different teams, based on different code, thus possibly having different bugs and issues) it may be just as laborious (to both port the OS, and then maintain it) as in case of completely different models…
Also note, that Sony binaries for the 10 IV were first released by Sony as Android 12 based (and only updated to Android 13 literally a few months ago), so that Android 12 based version might have been used by Jolla to base their SFOS port on it. Whereas the 10 V binaries will be Android 13 based. This single difference alone would probably make support for those two models two completely separate projects…
Let’s be serious… If one wants to buy it cheaper when stores sell it out after a new model is launched, one can just wait for it, it doesn’t take Jolla to delay introducing their support for it to happen.
For me it was a real struggle to buy it first hand in July 2022, I bought literally one of the last units available in my country in normal stores (rather than some shady ones and auction portals), and only because a helpful helpline person told me to watch the availability in the middle of the night when they made the last few units available for sale (which all disappeared within literally a few minutes).
Lastly, once again, it is not only a matter of just “releasing support” for one model or two. It is (maybe first of all) a matter of MAINTAINING it then, i.e. dealing with all their unique bugs, issues, etc. In case of two models it means two devices to maintain over the next period of time, rather than one. Having to split their limited resources like that simply translates to LESS time and care for each of those models than what they could provide to a single model.
As I wrote, despite three updates from Sony of their AOSP binaries for the 10 III released in 2022 and 2023 past the one that SFOS uses (from February 2022), which are said to bring some fixes and improvements, none of them is supported, so Jolla clearly lack time and manpower to deal with it. So how will it look with two more models?
If indeed - thanks to similarities between the 10 IV and V - it will be easier and quicker to introduce support for the 10 V based on the work possibly already done for the 10 IV, I would actually skip the 10 IV anyway, just in order to not have to support two new models simultaneously rather than just one, which would further halve the amount of time and care each model would then be getting.
Seriously: what would be the point of supporting two almost identical devices, one of which is just going to stop shipping? Only to satisfy some 20 or maybe 30 people who bought it “in hope it would be supported”? While with no doubt morally noble, does it really justify (and make it economically viable) having to maintain it then over the next couple of years just for that handful of people, whereas very soon almost everyone else will be buying the new 10 V ?
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Originally, this slim operating system should be installable on different hardware and numerous devices.
Currently SFOS runs on a very limited number of devices, which prevents a growing community and new end users.
It appears that clean code no longer exists and the effort to fix bugs has halted further development. Is SFOS programmed to death or was the clean code taken exclusively from Rostelecom to RU?
I’m really hoping for a port to the Xperia 10 IV, which is slumbering on my shelf. Would be nice to sail again and in the meantime I use the Volla22 with UT20.04.
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In other words, the only argument of those who hope for the 10 IV port is that they took the risk, bought the 10 IV and now don’t know what to do with it. So it is entirely subjective, not taking into account what would be better for future SFOS development and popularity. Or actually maybe even against it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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I think the question is not what device you or I want but what makes sense to Jolla, if they already started work on their 10iv port because they need a newer device soon then throwing that work out because the 10v was announced and they will be able to start work on that platform somewhere in the next 6 month probably doesn’t make sense.
As for your remarks on Sony binaries Jolla has been atrocious about getting newer binary bases into their images and I don’t expect that to change, if you want secure up-to-date firmware then past experience with Jolla really raises serious questions if they are the right fit.
Personally I have been with Jolla since they were still at nokia and I would like nothing more than to see them succeed but I have serious concerns about ther longevity given the maturation of other more true FOSS mobile platforms and Jollas difficult relationship with OSS, Android App Support is the only thing keeping me here at the moment and it has rapidly maturing FOSS counterparts.
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