If you can’t tolerate other opinions, grow up. This flagging kindergarten has to stop, it’s annoying as hell.
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Since ever we have a semi developed product in continious evollution. Thus it is kind of investment in experiment with no deadline for completion, nor payment for achievement.
What do you mean by “sporadic payments”? Those who want to buy the licence simply buy it, either by paying once in whole and upfront, or by paying in parts monthly if Jolla enforces so by removing any other payment options. But it is EXACTLY the same user base, the exact same number of people, i.e. those who WANT to pay rather than use the free version. The subscription model doesn’t change absolutely ANYTHING in this regard - it surely won’t make substantially more people pay than those who were buying the “perpetual” licence, especially that subscription is actually considerably more expensive already after 10 months.
On the contrary, the one-time upfront licence purchase once paid in whole remains in Jolla’s hands forever, whereas monthly payments can be just stopped at literally any time, for a multitude of reasons - dissatisfaction of the user due to bugs and issues, losing or breaking the phone, death or illness, switching to other device / OS, getting into financial problems and having to reduce expenses, and a DAMN LOT more. Are you really telling me that monthly payments are more predictable than paying all in advance? I seriously don’t think so, especially in this specific case of super-tiny and rather FIXED group of paying / supporting users. That they’ve only ordered 1000 units of the Community Phone (so called “first batch” but I seriously doubt that there will be a second one) is a good indication of how many of those who financially support Jolla really are out there.
Mind you, I do not think that it is a typical case. Just look at the forums and you’ll notice that majority of people have been owning the 10 III now. Those who keep using ancient 6- or 8- years old phones as their main device are minority.
That’s obviously your free choice to keep using it forever. Still, it doesn’t make you a typical and representative case. During the time you’ve been sticking with your X10, I’ve used the XA2, then the 10 III, and now the 10 V delivery is pending.
Please also remember, that either those €49.99 or soon those €5/month are in fact for the COMMERCIAL COMPONENTS only, namely AppSuport and MS Exchange. Not even for the XT9 text prediction anymore on the new Xperias as they will remove it, allegedly due to “licensing issues”.
So maybe Jolla should change something else in their business model, maybe start charging for some more components than just AppSupport and MS Exchange, or for the entire OS, as those who do not need AppSupport or MS Exchange have been using Sailfish OS completely for free for years and were never expected to pay ANYTHING.
So on one hand for years they’ve been consciously limiting the group of their PAYING CUSTOMERS to just those who pay for AppSupport rather than the entire OS user base, and on the other hand they’ve been perpetually whining about lack of funds for development. THAT’S the problem, and not whether those who want AppSupport are paying for it monthly or at once.
Over a decade of no support for commercial applications in their store, of which they might be earning some 30-40% per sale, no paid applications from Jolla themselves (e.g. the Weather app whose price might easily cover its API costs + some more, but no, Jolla just prefers to remove it and that’s it).
There have always been (and there still are) LOTS of ways for Jolla to establish some multiple stable revenue streams.
And no, enforcing monthly payments from only AppSupport / MS Exchange users (as that’s what one’s payment gives him in return) CAN NOT and WILL NOT bring Jolla any SERIOUS increase of revenue, because it is a further SUB-GROUP of SFOS user base, i.e. something even smaller than the tiny group of people using SFOS. The whole rest, not using those two commercial components, keep using SFOS for free and not participating in anything. For years.
So enforcing undesired and disliked by many people subscriptions only on those who have always been paying is like PENALIZING those who have always paid and supported Jolla, while the whole rest who never paid and have always used SFOS X for free still won’t give a flying **** and will continue using it for free. I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out to be a larger group than those who pay. How hilarious it is.
So, once again, Jolla should reach out for additional revenue streams ELSEWHERE than by penalizing the tiny group of their most devoted and supporting users, and expecting that they keep financing thousands of those who for years have been using SFOS for free, never bought any licence and will not pay any subscription, either. Putting the entire financial burden only upon their most devoted user group is not just economically UNVIABLE, but also simply dishonest.
What isn’t working is the business model of only charging for the AppSupport / MS Exchange, while letting everything else to be used completely for free by anyone. Hence the tiny sub-group of AppSupport users forced to finance thousands of users of the “free version” (not using AppSuport at all, or pirating it, or using Waydroid, or whatever). Whereas there’s a multitude of ways those UNPAYING users could (and should) be also enabled to participate in funding the OS development.
Yeah, so let’s keep making AppSupport / MS Exchange users ONLY (a few thousand people or so) pay more and more and continue funding the entire OS maintenance and development cost, while the whole rest continues not to pay anything as there is nothing else to pay for, even if they wanted, and actually not even any incentive to do it. Pretty wise and honest, a perfectly reasonable business model.
I never said that they should continue as before. I’m saying that FINALLY other revenue streams should be enabled: paid applications in the store (on which Jolla could easily be taking 30-40% commission), paid major OS updates, paid Jolla applications (e.g. Jolla’s Weather as a paid app, covering the API cost and maybe bringing some profit), paid services (e.g. prioritized Helpdesk support) and LOTS more. All of which they NEVER bothered to even try, but instead for many years they’ve been expecting only the CORE COMMUNITY of most devoted SFOS users to PERPETUALLY fund their entire existence. Which is quite awful actually.
You can pay as much as you want. It will never be enough to secure Jolla’s existence if it is limited to just AppSupport / MS Exchange licence buyers (or now subscribers), while everyone else is provided the entire OS for free and not required (or even just enabled) in any other way to participate in SFOS maintenance and development cost by paying for literally anything. Maybe you belong to that SUPER-TINY group of people VOLUNTARILY willing to support Jolla just because you use Sailfish OS and want it to survive and further develop, but be sure that majority of people will not pay a single buck if it is not required.
So keep being shaved like a sheep (more and more, as just switching to subscriptions surely won’t help much, and regularly increasing the fees will surely occur), it won’t do anything as long as everyone else but AppSupport users is given SFOS for free and doesn’t give a flying **** about how much YOU pay and whether you pay upfront or monthly.
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Citation needed.
But some people naively think that switching to monthly subscriptions will MAGICALLY change it, especially now that half of their developers will have to be busy with Mind2 and Safilsh Core (embedded version).
Unless there’s a huge sudden growth of their customer base (ha ha ha), it’ll take whopping 10 months starting from August (when paid components for the 10 IV / V come out) for Jolla to collect the same amount of money from selling 10 IV / V subscriptions as what they would instantly earn from selling 10 IV / V licences paid in whole upfront. But even that only assuming that all the users accept subscriptions (which as we see won’t be the case) and that all those users continue to pay 10 months and beyond, rather than stop paying sooner than that.
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A quote from @rainemak:
All these changes are resulting a temporary discontinuation of predictive text input for new Sailfish X license buyers. We’re looking for a solution for this temporary discontinuation. In parallel, we are looking for a new modern solution for predictive text input but replacing it with a completely new implementation will take time. Once we get predictive text input issues fixed, we provide it for users who are now buying Sailfish X license. We are working hard on the new setup and will keep you informed about the progress.
Present Sailfish X license holders will experience no impact on predictive text input; this functionality will continue to operate as before.
Source:
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So they do AI, but the are not able to doa f***ing predective text engine? Now I have huge doubts of the mind2 capabilities.
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They surely are. Considering that the text engine continues to work for holders of existing licences, also under the new 4.6 OS, and only new licences lack it, then it means that the problem isn’t of technical matter but it is purely a financial thing. I mean, just like Weather app API access, they problably didn’t want to pay licence fees for XT9 anymore, so they’ve just dropped it. IIRC, XT9 was licenced from Nuance, acquired by Microsoft a few years ago.
As in “One lump sum every 1-5 years” rather than a predictable revenue stream you can hire people to work on SailfishOS knowing you’re going to be able to make payroll every month. Rather than having to factor in a huge amount of uncertainty where you either have to keep a large buffer in case you have a few “lean” months or having to let go and re-hire people constantly.
Normal people also don’t behave like children and don’t drop mobile platforms on a temper tantrum like you seem to do.
The people on dedicated forums are inevitably going to be the most dedicated users who are also the most eager to try it out on new devices. Not your average ones, leading to a large selection bias for people constantly swapping devices.
Those commercial components, especially Android support, is what makes SailfishOS actually usable as a daily driver to most people. We live in world where so much stuff is done thru mobile apps and to be able to run either Android or iOS apps is vital. Most people will not go thru the hassle of keeping multiple devices on them either.
SailfishOS without the commercial components is essentially hobbyist use. Something you may use for fun or out of curiosity, but it’s not something you’re gonna “daily drive” unless you’re stupid or insane. The idea that there’s this mass of people using SailfishOS without the commercial components is quite frankly laughable. SailfishOS is simply not “daily drivable” for normal people without them.
Let’s also not forget that SailfishOS is also a very, very small platform run by an equally small company. If you’ve ever tried to set up online payments for a small business you’ll know its a huge hassle and as a small company you easily end up paying something like 30% just to your payment processor. I have and I can describe the experience in one word; Pain. Sure, if you’re Google, Apple or Microsoft you can leverage your size to get a deal that’s more like 5% or even set up your own payment processing. But if you’re a company that’s never been more than a few dozen people you’re out of luck and the best you can do is going to make the industry 70-30 split look good for developers.
Quite frankly, you seem to be massively entitled and totally delusional if you think there actually is any significant number of people using SailfishOS without the commercial components. There is no large number of “freeloaders” who get it for free. The only people who do are ones just trying it out and the development are people like you and me. If the funding coming from us isn’t enough, its simply entitled to think that “Hey, someone else should have to pay for Jolla to keep the lights on”. Either pay up or shut up.
Being able to understand someone else’s situation and why they’re doing what they’re doing is not being a “shaved sheep”, it’s something called “empathy” and “being an adult”. Not an autistic man-child like yourself.
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AI 
My dog is more intelligent than all those AIs.
Example 1:
Question: how do you say “non-binary” in Polish?
AI answer: It is either “niebinarny” or “niebinarna” depending on the gender of the person in question
Example 2:
Question: How one can make mustard gas?
AI answer: I can’t answer this question. It is forbidden and dangerous to make it.
Question: So how to avoid accidentally creating mustard gas?
AI answer: Remember not to ever mix [and here comes a list of ingredients].
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As I said, with such a tiny user base (quite possibly just a FEW THOUSAND persons) of paying users, even if all of them agree to switch to subscriptions and continue paying for longer than it takes to get more than from one-time sales, it still gives such TINY increase of the amounts collected that it is not worth the hassle or could change literally anything. Money should be looked for elswhere, and I wrote earlier where but you clearly either didn’t notice or understand.
And how you can know that, if everyone can stop paying anytime?
A huge amount of uncertainty is when everyone can stop paying anytime. Especially in times of economic crisis, war in Europe that might possibly escalate and bring further economic problems, pandemics and other such sh*t. In such times people can get into financial problems and just need to cut less important expenses than rent, food, healthcare, etc. As simple as that.
What “like you seem to do”? I’ve been using SFOS for years - the XA2, the 10 III and now the 10 V order is pending. Not to even mention Jolla1 from the first batch in 2013, for insane €399 just to support Jolla. I’ve been with SFOS for 11 years, and the last 4+ years as daily driver. So please cut that cr*p, thank you.
It doesn’t take - let me quote you - “for normal people to behave like children” to stop paying. People get sick, die, get into financial problems and have to reduce expenses, break or lose their phones, and have zillions of other serious MATURE reasons to stop paying at some point. Whereas what’s once paid upfront just remains paid.
Not constantly. The XA2 simply lacks VoLTE on SFOS, so it at one point it simply became unusable, and soon every other device without VoLTE will become unusable anywhere as all networks gradually switch off 3G and 2G. So it was actually enforced by Jolla (who didn’t implement VoLTE on any model below the 10 II) and not your ridiculous “people constantly swapping devices”.
It is also a good example that even though my XA2’s licence THEORETICALLY remains “PERPETUAL” as Jolla calls it, already in 2022 Jolla decided not to provide VoLTE support to any model below 10 II, actually rendering them useless in the nearest future (in my case already in early 2023, as my mobile network completely switched off 3G and has been gradually reducing 2G coverage and throughput) as without VoLTE one can’t make calls if there is no 3G or 2G fallback. So much for alleged PERPETUAL full usability of a licenced SFOS device.
As for my current planned switch to 10 V, yeah, I’ve just put the order on hold and I’m thinking whether not to cancel it if I am forced to pay subscription. So YES, Jolla will probably succeed in teaching me to be more ecological and environmental-friendly by forcing me to stick with my 10 III rather than buying a new phone and licence after merely 1,5 years, result of which will be not paying them anything anymore (at least in any foreseeable future). A great business model, indeed.
Who and where ever questioned it? Or that it should cost a decent price?
You clearly understood absolutely ZERO from what I wrote to you. Pity.
I’ve been trying to understand Jolla’s situation and “why they’re doing what they’re doing” since 2012 despite their regular failures and bad decisions. Now I think that those subscriptions are yet another bad decision (or at least a dead end leading nowhere, wasting time and only discouraging people) so I am expressing my concerns in the very place meant for it, i.e. on their community forum.
But of course there are always people like you who are alergic to any criticism of Jolla, and quickly rush into personal namecalling like this one:
So this is where any further discussion with you becomes completely pointless if instead of any valid arguments that you clearly lack (other than rants about how Android support is important, totally obvious for everyone without you enlighting us), you rush into such personal insults, while not having even properly understood what you were told.
So over and out.
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What user base? They were not able to sell yet the 1000 batch of ‘community’ phone. Other companies they can sell millions in a heartbeat. Either the community is very small (in hundreds) or Jolla is not able to fool twice with selling something that they don’t have. Some people here forgot the Tablet story. What I find interesting is that some people claim that they will pay the subscription but are not willing to preorder the phone. Guys, put the money where your mouth is. Buying an obsolete expensive phone is also a way to support Jolla!!!
you think this is evidence of AI failing to ‘be clever’?
i don’t, i think it is merely an accurate reflection of how language is used (and thus how people think).
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I speak only for myself but I bought my 10 V with a slight risk before the official announcement of SF support so that I won’t miss out because I need a new device or most specifically a new battery. Gots a nice rosegold mandala flip cover for it too. I only powered it up last week in anticipation that 4.6 would be immediately available for it.
If I had had any kind of idea that Jolla would actually be bringing out a new device of their own with pre-installed SF, I have absolutely no idea which way I would have tilted. I liked Aqua Fish a plenty. But this is how it went now.
From the point of view of a pure user (not a developer or nerd):
I would prefer a monetized model where you can
a) Support the app developers and Jolla via app payment in a store.
b) The AAS updates would be paid for if they came twice a year. There may be differences in price (11.99 / 19.99€).
In addition, the price of 49.99 for the full package should be retained.
It is interesting for the user that something substantial comes along with the AAS updates (Bluetooth, NFC, banking, browser, camera [ok, driver-dependent - will probably not be feasible]). Eliminating serious bugs (phone functionality) should be a matter of course in a timely manner.
Of course, you can’t implement a noticeable improvement in every update. Sometimes the substructure also needs to be adapted.
The greater the noticeable improvement steps, the more willing I am to pay more money for the update.
Of course, this is a selfish view of a user and does not take into account any economic considerations for a company.
For AI you just need a bunch of morons that kick the black box until something that looks like a usable result falls out. For a predictive text engine you actually need developers and at least one guy that knows data structures.
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Complex software projects like whole platforms aren’t developed overnight by spending a big lump sum in one of, but a constant trickle of cost. When you have that constant trickle you can actually plan ahead with some amount of certainty and make long term goals.
As for your “Well get someone else to pay for it because I don’t wanna”, that’s just monumentally entitled.
Sure, a few people may throw temper tantrums and go thru the huge hassle of switching to another platform because they didn’t like the latest patch notes. However those types of adult children are the exception, not the rule.
In software, mass exoduses of userbases like you’re describing are very rare and primarily for when open source projects go “I have altered the deal. Pray that I do not alter it further” with their licenses and go totally proprietary. In those cases the userbase exodus is the least of their problems.
Just look at VMWare under Broadcom. Mass discontent with the licensing changes in many circles, but profits are actually up, not down. No mass exodus and the userbase is largely staying.
Like I said; Actual real world examples show that the kind of sudden mass user exodus you keep trying to insist might happen don’t actually exist. This insistence on your part is pure projection. Nothing more. Hence I call this a childish temper tantrum because most people are adults and behave like ones.
As for incidental reasons why people drop out, they’re just that. Incidental. They’re never going to be a large portion of your userbase. Only realistic mass exodus like you keep insisting is if they go and do something so bad the exodus is the least of their problems or their userbase consists of people on the mental level of children.
Compared to me and me still using original Xperia 10 your replacing of devices is absolutely constant.
Yet there you were moaning about Jolla “giving away” SailfishOS without those features and how you thought there was this huge number of “freeloaders” using SailfishOS without paying that Jolla should make pay for any access to SailfishOS.
No, its beyond obvious these are just people dipping their figurative toes and more probably helping grow the platform rather than freeload off you.
If you’ve read my other posts you’ll know I’m not happy about the subscription fee either. I’d have much preferred the one time payment even if it got doubled, but that model clearly not working means they’ve got to try something else.
Your suggestions of killing the free version because of imaginary freeloaders and “Well get someone else to pay you” are suggestions for alternatives. Yes. But exceptionally poor ones.
Lowering the barrier of entry by removing the up-front lump sum payment is, unfortunately, better than any alternative suggestion I’ve seen so far, including yours. My preference would’ve been to have both longer lump sum licenses and the subscription with no up-front payment. Something I hope Jolla might be convinced to at least consider.
That’s pretty rich considering you rushed to calling me a “shaved sheep” in your first reply to me…
In Finland we have a saying; “Se joka leikkiin ryhtyy, se leikin kestäköön” which roughly translates into English as “He who starts a game, has to bear it when it doesn’t go their way”. If you’re going to insult someone, don’t go crying to your mother when you get insulted in return. Especially when you do so immediately.
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Nope, the winner takes it all. Just look at “social” networks, they are a prominent example of that rule.
What if they try to make a good system? Has this been considered at all?
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You keep proving that you understand absolutely NOTHING from what you’re being told. No one here (and certainly not me) ever questioned the need to pay and support the development of the OS. Very much on the contrary, I wrote that multiple additional possible revenue sources should be taken advantage of to get more funds from more users (including those who don’t buy licences), because with user base this small licence sales or subscriptions won’t ever suffice.
Oh, and while we’re at paying Jolla, then it is me (as opposed to you with your half a decade old Xperia 10, i.e. zero money passed by you to Jolla for years) who regularly supports SFOS development (Jolla1, three SFOS X licences). So, once again, please cut that cr*p.
What you rudely call moaning, in reality turned out to be feedback and arguments that Jolla found valid and reasonable enough to make them change their decision and officially confirm today that based on users’ feedback they’ve decided to both keep the “perpetual” licences with fixed one-time fee, and also an option of yearly payments, in addition to monthly subscriptions.
So what I was writing here at least resulted in such useful and positive change that will certainly enable much more people to keep supporting Jolla and SFOS, whereas your unfriendly rants and insults only burned pixels on people’s displays.
Exactly. So I’d suggest you to cut that stream of “autistic man-child like yourself”, “massively entitled and totally delusional” and more, because I’ve never, not a single time, wrote to you a single personal insult like that, as can be easily verified in my previous posts to you. Anyway, how you throw such epithets only speaks about yourself and what kind of person you are, so actually do whatever you want.
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Finally some points to Jolla for listening the community. I write again that I think subscription fans are a minority here. As you mentioned majority that are against monthly subscription bought multiple licenses, in comparison with the eco nazis who are using same phone since last century ( best example @L_A_G ) but hey they are the ones who “will” support Jolla monthly. I bet that majority of them will pay 5 euros now and then for the updates, and guys like @wetab73 will buy license for 10V and 10VI even if he will never own a 10 VI.
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