[feature-request] Rail-guided TOH modular-attachment-standard

[launchpad]

I haven’t received and held any JP2-device in my hands yet, but from looking at the pictures of shared media and experiences since “Jolla Love Day 2” meanwhile I’m afraid, we’re still dealing with a conceptual, intermediate, little tested & iterated solution awaiting imminent real-world exposure.

The “tear-off-shell”-approach is coming with inherent polymer-mechanical strains with effects considering durability. Not the most elegant and wear-optimized, professional approach.

There once existed a quite solidly built cell-phone family called “Motorola MicroTAC” during the mid 1990s …

The slide-on/clip-locked-batteries ( which had to be exchanged twice a day ) slid on easily and precisly on polymer rails, which kept those heavy batteries accuratly and securely locked in place employing most simple and mechanically least-straining approaches at very little extra bulk weight ( apart the battery cells at that time ).

No wobbling or any recognizable tolerances. Very near camera-lens-mount-like, stable interlocking and virtually military-grade, reliable durability. Never experienced any issues with it.

User manual page 2, “Getting Started”/“Attach / Remove the Battery” :

https://usermanual.wiki/Motorola/MicroTAC.22472745.pdf

Example pics : https://www.ebay.de/itm/287257311130

The battery-modules ( which existed in two capacity sizes ) could easily house any thinkable TOH-realization nowadays :
from thin frames just holding e-ink-displays to somewhat thicker hifi-DACs or oversized periscopic lensgroups or Geiger-Mueller counters - whatever dimension you’d require in thickness for your application.

The 2D footprint-dimensions of 160 x 60 mm match pretty well JP-2-dimensions - thus the rail-guided attachment mechanism could be translated into modern, modular “Jolla-standard” requirements ( which then in turn could promote a convincingly well evolved standard for further marketing / licensing ).

Time to take a closer look at a convincing longterm standard - both mechanically and electronically - beyond those experimental drafts every now and then.

see also :

[Proposal] Make the TOH electronics detachable from the TOH shell

At the moment, there is just one actively maintained Jolla mobile device with according mechanical specifications for its TOH (see Jolla Phone TOH | Sailfish OS Documentation ). But what if… …a new device with different dimensions is released by Jolla in the future? …major components such as display, battery, camera modules, etc. are discontinued by their respective manufacturers, become harder to obtain (e.g. due to global supply chain problems), and so on - all of which would drastically inc…

[attah]

@launchpad

The “tear-off-shell”-approach is coming with inherent polymer-mechanical strains with effects considering durability. Not the most elegant and wear-optimized, professional approach.

The original Jolla Phone (2013) did just fine.

[launchpad]

… well, mechanically definitely not really. All shells I owned ( apart TOH keyboard ) had cracks (3-5mm) alone from swapping the ( then removable ) batteries during daily use. I still have them for reference.
Fortunately Sony devices followed - so I couldn’t see those shells finally falling apart. But theywere not made to last or to provide any future-proof standard …

IMHO TOH need to be re-thought and reliable designs settled LTS-wise …

[attah]

@launchpad

from swapping the ( then removable ) batteries during daily use.

“You are using it wrong”

• Steve Jobs, probably

[filip.k]

Maybe, maybe not.

But such replies to constructive suggestions are not really productive.

I think that @launchpad suggestion has some weight.

[launchpad]

… swappable batteries are made to swap or am I that wrong ?

[attah]

They are replaceable for when they wear out. None of the involved components are made for $DAILY amount of cycles.

See also: battery screws on J2.

@filip.k This is what i meant.

[launchpad]

Thanks. I want to keep it neutral from my side, thus not “liking” your moderation …

[launchpad]

I’m wondering about the current jolla-warranty disclaimer for TOHs just shipping. Considering 30€/pc I could expect some durability for the next two years ( standard warranty period ) ….

[CLMA31]

You really don’t need to comment everything, it is okay. The suggestion was constructive, even if it very unlikely that Jolla will change the design. With idea that one would have work TOH, home TOH, hobby TOH, keyboard TOH,…. which you change daily this can be definitely problem. Your personal way to use the phone isn’t all and whole truth, others maybe use it differently. They might change TOH multiple times a day and that is okay

I personally won’t change TOH often, but that doesn’t mean that others shouldn’t.

If you don’t have anything constructive to say, please don’t bloat every conversation.

[Kanthal]

@launchpad

IMHO TOH need to be re-thought and reliable designs settled LTS-wise …

TOHs and modularity have a lot of examples in the market, even within Jolla with J1.
Nothing ever worked in long term for many reasons.

For Jolla to have TOHs compatible (in a way) it means they either have to introduce the same or very similar phone again and again, or focus on TOHs to make money (assuming it works).

Keeping compatibility requires losing money eventually either from not selling new devices or not selling more TOHs, and it’s proven again and again that it doesn’t work.

I would treat TOH as a fun tinkering feature for a few individuals and nothing else, until Jolla’s vision and implementation proves otherwise. Which I really hope of course, but realistically speaking I don’t expect.

Ps. All that is for a “future phone”. The phone is done and shipping already so whatever we discuss here is already pointless for the current generation.

@CLMA31

With idea that one would have work TOH, home TOH, hobby TOH, keyboard TOH,…. which you change daily this can be definitely problem

I don’t need a TOH to use profiles, situations, focus, whatever each company names these.
And I certainly prefer to automate these things instead of applying a different back cover that I might lose, break, i have to always carry with me, and I also have to spend hundreds of euros to be able to do so.
This is one of the cases where reality is very different from theory.

[CLMA31]

@Kanthal

I don’t need a TOH to use profiles, situations, focus, whatever each company names these.
And I certainly prefer to automate these things instead of applying a different back cover that I might lose, break, i have to always carry with me, and I also have to spend hundreds of euros to be able to do so.
This is one of the cases where reality is very different from theory.

This is probably current reality. But in case TOH brakes through, I for example would like to have TOH that adds a lot of additional protection. In normal time I wouldn’t need that, would change it. In work trip I would love to have extra battery TOH attached with wireless charging. There is already 3 different TOHs to be used often. Currently of course as these don’t exist, I won’t change the TOH that often.

[Kanthal]

I agree. There are situations like these where there will be value, but I still believe it will be for someone’s hobby for 2 reasons.
1 and most important, jolla won’t make any so if anyone wants anything they should start building it.
And 2, both the examples that you gave can be solved with 1 bulky case and a MagSafe power bank that the market is flooded with.

Maybe that’s why Jolla decided to not get involved with these applications for TOHs.

[CLMA31]

Very true, and I hope Jolla stays out of the TOH business at least for while and focuses to the SFOS development. And I understand that if Jolla doesn’t commercial the TOHs, probably 3rd party won’t either in short term.

But I can still see the use case. For example I don’t want to have extra battery in my hobbies, where there can be quite bad hits for the phone. Somekind of heavy dust proof automagic vacuum TOH would be very nice, which also protects from heavy hits. Still, the one I really would love to have is slide-out qwerty keyboard TOH. That one I kind of hope Jolla would make, as I imagine it to be maybe even financially valid TOH

[launchpad]

@Kanthal

I would treat TOH as a fun tinkering feature for a few individuals and nothing else, until Jolla’s vision and implementation proves otherwise.

Well, some time ago, we all agreed, TOH is pure tinkering and useless per se. Funky other halves …. Why jolla dug it out boldly again, doing even polls ?

My point in a nutshell :
• If TOH is never done properly, why then these silly vibes again ? It’s ridiculous ….
• Something useful could be defined & settled as a reliable & cost-effective future connection standard within a few weeks, as it really can be obtained straightforward.
• If you don’t settle something reliably serious when then ? Nobody will ever bother considering devel time …

ok we might all say in 10-15 yrs smartphone hardware is already completly out of fashion.

So @jolla : what do you intend with this current TOH-buzz ? Seriously or just venting air ?

From my side I should’ve said enough ….

[Kanthal]

@launchpad

Why jolla dug it out boldly again, doing even polls ?

Press, sales and already existing technology / implementation to differentiate would be my guess.

Could also evolve to something great for the community to indirectly benefit them with more phone sales, while also might give them a chance in the b2b side.

That’s what I see at least from a product perspective.

So if you have a good idea (like the rails system), you should start exploring it.

[launchpad]

It could be quite helpful, hearing an official @jollaHQ TOH outlook and statement before further running down blindly that lane, wasting community time & efforts ….

[Kanthal]

Jolla showed the roadmap on day1 and also replied to community meeting that they don’t plan to make keyboards and such with TOHs.

I’d argue (like I did 6 months ago) that the only waste of time is to constantly share TOH ideas thinking that someone else will make them instead of sharing prototype pictures, but maybe that’s just me

[toolatenofriends]

I’m not sure comparing a dumb phone from the 90s that used so much power, since it was akin to making phone calls with a microwave, is the best way to criticize our beloved TOH.

The fact we CAN access the battery at all is a small miracle in today’s wasteful society.

Agree with @attah that if your intention is to swap the battery daily that you are indeed ‘using it wrong’.

Now get off my lawn!

[Sefriol]

I think that if your TOH requires constant swapping, you can probably include the fast swap mechanism into the TOH itself.

Previously they were “permanent” replacements or some times you just wanted to switch your phone’s back color.

One of the reason why I do not really understand the current cases. They should just protect the edges so that your screen does not crack and leave the back plain. Or even have rugged “cases” that are just TOH. Point being that you just swap whole back if you break it.

Cases should protect the camera lenses, the screen and the frame. Rest is kinda pointless since sometimes dust and particles get between the case and the frame and it gets scuffed because of it.