Calling other people “forum police” is not only rude and inappropriate, but also off topic in this thread. If you want to discuss the flagging/moderation policies, please create a topic for it in the site feedback category instead of abusing other topics.
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Never mind.
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yes indeed.
To all those who feel the need to censor other users’ posts, please note carefully the following:
From the Forum guidelines, Jolla’s Terms of Service:
" Foster freedom. We do not believe in walled gardens, we prefer the open sea. We want our products and services to free you to express yourself as you see fit, not lock you down to a view of the world imposed on you by us.
“Improve the Discussion. … Be respectful of the topics and the people discussing them, even if you disagree with some of what is being said.”
If You See a Problem, Flag It … With your help, moderators can be community facilitators, not just janitors or police."
So referring to moderators as ‘police’ is therefore already an acceptable term for Jolla.
Post Community Flagging Edit:
In my posts I have always tried to be reasonable, factual and objective.
This post simply asks those who are censoring my posts and those of others to take note of the Jolla Terms of Service and Forum Guidelines that I have quoted, nothing more. There is no opinion here, no view, just simply a direct copy and paste of Jolla’s own text.
However, somebody (who?) has disagreed with this and censored my post yet again with no explanation and no feedback as to why they feel it is unreasonable to ask them to consider Jolla’s own terms of service. No challenge has been offered and no counter argument put forward.
There are other posts on this same subject, and in the same vein, by other authors, both before and after my own, that have not currently been censored, so I now consider this behaviour to be targeted at me personally. Clearly if these other posts are now censored only after this comment has been read then this will add further weight to this conclusion.
This behaviour is totally unacceptable on a public forum and amounts to victimisation.
If this situation is not rectified immediately, along with an apology from the people concerned, I will be escalating this issue to Sami Pienimäki, the CEO of Jolla.
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I am just testing the system. your questions are legit.
I used the term “communist party” because I lived in communism and I know how it feels.
And yes it feels similar.
Anyway - lets hope that this discussion will bring some fruit
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Guys, I’m out.
I live in a place where we are somewhat sensitive when it comes to comparisons with dictatorship and stuff.
On the other hand I feel personally disgusted discussing with people who on one side know the real secret and only truth behind it all and on the other side are watching out for their countless and well organized homogeneous enemies.
Anyway. Wrong thread for me.
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But the private message one receives when a message is flagged contradicts Jolla’s statements @Steve_Everett cited:
This post was hidden due to flags from the community, so please consider how you might revise your post to reflect their feedback. You can edit your post after 10 minutes, and it will be automatically unhidden.
However, if the post is hidden by the community a second time, it will remain hidden until handled by staff.
As the “anonymous censors” do not provide any feedback (and there is no incentive for them to do so, rather the opposite), these rules simply foster censorship.
The crucial point is that suppressing messages can be done in total anonymity: This spurs this special kind of “trolling in the dark” behaviour.
P.S.: As this “forum police” behaviour turns out to be a larger, structural issue (because it is rooted in the forum policies set by Jolla), one may follow @vige’s request, “to discuss the flagging/moderation policies, please create a topic for it in the site feedback category”.
I think this thread nicely depicts how the extant forum policies foster passive-aggressive, hidden-domiant behaviour. Triggering this a couple of times was well worth it to create examples and to prove that this is a permanently recurring behavioural pattern of some forum members.
Plus one has to reflect about the exhibited behaviour to extract the underlying structural issues nourishing it.
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Hey guys back to topic? An update on my part, I have now completed the update and so far everything works. Random closing Apps are normal at this Version. It’s my daily device. How long it works, i don’t know. But for now it’s ok.
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In my posts I have always tried to be reasonable, factual and objective.
My recently censored post simply asks those who are censoring my posts and those of others to take note of the Jolla Terms of Service and Forum Guidelines that I have quoted, nothing more. There is no opinion there, no view, just simply a direct copy and paste of Jolla’s own text.
However, somebody (who?) has disagreed with this and censored my post yet again with no explanation and no feedback as to why they feel it is unreasonable to ask them to consider Jolla’s own terms of service. No challenge has been offered and no counter argument put forward.
There are other posts on this same subject, and in the same vein, by other authors, both before and after my own recent post, that have not currently been censored, so I now consider this behaviour to be targeted at me personally. Clearly if these other posts are now censored only after this comment has been read then this will add further weight to this conclusion.
This behaviour is totally unacceptable on a public forum and amounts to victimisation.
If this situation is not rectified immediately, along with an apology from the people concerned, I will be escalating this issue to Sami Pienimäki, the CEO of Jolla.
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@Steve_Everett, please hold your horses!
- As you seem to have quite some motivation to resolve this, please follow @vige’s request, “to discuss the flagging/moderation policies, please create a topic for it in the site feedback category” (as denoted before).
So @ansch190 can ultimately have his thread back. - I will sure support you (and likely a few others), but currently lack the time to create a concise write-up from the messages and observations here for that new thread.
- I fully agree that this should be escalated until it is resolved. But mind how slow the clock at Jolla seem to be ticking, plus that we shall have a proper suggestion for a better flagging-policy than just criticising the current one (which definitely promotes this passive-aggressive muting behaviour). This suggestion also has to avoid increasing the workload for Jolla.
HTH; when you have started a new thread at the appropriate location, you might drop a link to it here, as a last message WRT this excursion.
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Hold my horses indeed!
As a lawyer I have been involved in cases where freedom of expression has been suppressed in the absence of any reasonable or legal justification to do so - and most of these cases, unsurprisingly, have a technology element to them - mainly social media based. So I know the harm and bad feeling that this behaviour can cause - indeed in some cases it has been found to be a form of bullying and/or harassment.
I also note that @ddobrev is planning to raise the issue of forum censorship at the 30th September community meeting.
I have already started drafting such a post for the feedback category as suggested covering the issues so far, some observations, and some proposals on how moderation could be handled differently and more fairly as an objective tool of last resort, rather than a subjective tool of first response. This will take me a few days at last as my time is also limited. But when I have posted I would welcome other community members’ views on the subject and what ideas they may have to improve matters.
As for Jolla’s ‘slow ticking clock’ - there are of course ways around this to focus attention. Free speech, expression and the censorship of this is something that should greatly concern us all. Jolla is already on record as supporting this (" Foster freedom. We do not believe in walled gardens, we prefer the open sea. We want our products and services to free you to express yourself as you see fit, not lock you down to a view of the world imposed on you by us") so I sincerely hope we will be pushing at an open door.
@ansch190 can have his thread back now 
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I will become political and will probably trigger another ban, so I should behave as required. Just like in Communist Europe I grew up. And this feeling is the one that is buzzing me to the roof.
I couldn’t believe my assumptions are indeed true.
I am not sorry for what I wrote or how I wrote it.
I am sorry for the people, who think this behavior is right and they participate. I am also for the people that flagged my post to trigger the ban.
And I share your concern fully as these people do not have a clue of democracy but pretend and indeed destroy democracy.
Never mind guys, I love you all and forgive you for what you’ve done which you should also learn (thanks God after communism I understood what Christianity is all about).
Now back to the topic. I installed 4.2.0.21 and now BT can be turned on and off without issue - GREAT Jolla fixed it couple of months later (ironically)
However now I can not connect to the HFP or A2DP I have in the car … the 3.3.0.16 still works without issues.
I will not use harsh words this time, but … you can refer to my posts from before
Start properly testing please, you support anyway limited number of devices. It is simply unprofessional to release rubbish (well not everything is, but BT is a PITA since bluez5 was adopted and I am absolutely right to be pi***d - 4years already).
thank you all
best regards
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It’s just a coincidence, but i recently (yesterday?) got the forum karma that my flagging something would be of consequence. What that means is that forum users, just like you and me are doing the flagging. so, I’m afraid escalating it to upper management is futile. Asking for reasonable behaviour from your fellows is about the best you can do.
This is what I always assumed to be the most likely case.
so, I’m afraid escalating it to upper management is futile.
IMO this statement does not make sense, doubly so.
- The “upper management” does not care about this forum at all. They care about big licensees (the one) and their shareholders (value).
That is why the statement of yours is correct, but IMO meaningless. - It never was the plan (at least from my POV) to escalate this topic to the upper management. We are not really able to reach them, any way.
What needs to be done IMO, is to make the middle-management aware that the rules / configuration Jolla has set for this forum are fostering totalitarian behaviour by some users, hence causing friction and conflicts, which might result in users turning away.
Side note: IMO this also results in a down-selection of the users here, because it specifically hits the critical and open-minded users, while the ones urging for pink ponies with golden glitter saddles will stay and ultimately get what they want: A “totally buggy OS”, which is redefined as “shiny, nice, bug-free and pink” (as in “2 + 2 = 5”).
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- This forum has associated costs and benefits. At the point where the human costs, moderation, are higher than the benefits, feedback/bugtracking, management has, if anything motivation to set the bar even higher. That is, increase censorship to keep the peace and the costs down. This is evident in larger ‘social media’ space. I’d like to place the emphasis on us keeping the peace and doing the policing.
- I believe that vige, for one, is very much aware and looking through the details. But he has a lot of work to do. Many of us on the other hand don’t HAVE to do this, we choose to. We do provide value but also create work. Some of those to-dos will have a negative impact on optimizing other bits.
As to the problems of the buggy os. I’m a community user. I have paid for product, the first phone, which I was unhappy with and as a consequence I tried other options. I am a lost customer. Since the complaint about bugginess is a constant theme over the course of almost 10 years, the only rational behavior I see for customers is to ask for a refund. But I’m not sure if/how that works?
The censorship introduced by software or management is causing even more effort.
All we are asking about is to take care of the bugs reported by the community and stop releasing new versions with even more bugs.
I still have Intex AquaFish which works much better than latest 10 II. As I stated I have frozen the X on 3.3.0.16, because I managed to fix most of the issues related to my use cases.
Following the API changes introduced after 3.3.0.16 I could predict the issues and my question is, why were those versions released to all.
IMO it is a bad quality management perhaps related to mile stones and cost, however from customer perspective it reminds me to the first version of Harmattan that was awfully buggy and the people proved they can solve the bugs.
I still claim it is matter of mentality, a mentality obvious in many open source projects in the past years - take as example KDE4 or systemd.
But flagging and censoring for speaking the truth is very mean and inappropriate.
So not only they are not fixing the bugs and releasing new buggy version, but also forbidding one to mention this.
Of course “total” is too far reached, but we all hopefully know how language works and at the end it is not a question if it is a little bit buggy or more buggy - the annoying fact is that it is buggy and bugs are not being addressed for years.
For me personally one of the biggest issues I have is the bluetooth. While it was working on the bluez4 despite bluez4 was junk they introduced bluez5 without taking care of the big picture so awfully a lot of things stopped working. Even now the bluez5 in the X on 3.3.0.16 is working flowlessly while the bluez5 in the 4.2.0.21 is not.
These are just small examples … I do not want to start another list of issues.
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Meta:
Not really digging this kind of total tantrum all-encompassing ideological venting is appearing on this forum as well. I’ve seen it too much on other Linux and other communities. It’s not really constructive and doesn’t make us move forward.
Next up is probably some weird FUD appearing here as well.
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