Holy. Cow. Just. Holy. Cow.
In my opinion, @archon , @lolek and @ric9k have a nice idea there. It applies to open source software in general: “reasons to pick open source instead of proprietary”.
If you could compile a list of arguments from naysayers of open source software and answers to those. That would make the argumentation for some of us easier when promoting it.
Example: “i prefer iPhone/Mac/Apple because everything is integrated” - with this statement usually the user means that the same account allows you to access your cloud/download apps/pay online/listen to music/etc… without having to sign in/up every time.
or “OS is too complicated and only for geeks” or my favorite “it’s ugly”
What would you reply to that as an open source advocate ? With the robot taking pictures as a leverage it gets easier to explain and convince people to make the switch.
1 Like
actually nope it’s the way it just works. Of course in some limited way, you can’t do much with it but as long as you’ll stick with manufacturer guidelines, it will work without much problems.
With OpenSource it’s a bit different. Consider NextCloud as a cloud example.
You’ve got a choice:
- use some apple cloud that nicely integrated with their software and all you have to do is to just provide login/pass and some money to pay for it
- use nextcloud where you need to: setup your own server (!), find apps for the device you’re using and hope it will work properly and set it up (!),
Now, on the first sight it looks like Apple solution is expensive - ok they really are but let’s focus on something else - but OpenSource is also not for free cause you need to became an IT Admin probably knowing also Networking and also you need to know how to configure everything. That takes a lot of time and if you don’t know all this you need to learn which takes even more time.
Ok there’s a chance that in the long time it will be better but I forgot to mention backups which is another problem to handle. And if you’re doing it locally then you’re fragile for losing data because of potential burglars, fire, flooding etc depends on area where you live.
And oh, there’s more. You’re alone, so if something happen to you, your family probably wont be able to handle this setup except there’s someone in your family that knows all this including password, topology etc.
So it’s not that simple to just provide counterarguments cause you need to know what you’re targeting. And right now you’re targeting not only simple cell phone, but a smartphone that’s connected to a network with cloud services etc etc etc.
3 Likes
“i prefer iPhone/Mac/Apple because everything is integrated”
It it hard to argue, because it is true. But again, this convenience is at a cost. You give all your data to one provider. Is it safe? Let’s imagine you have some assets you want to invest. It is wise to diverse your investment into many directions. Even if you loose 3 out of 4 investments, you will probably make profit out of the 4th one. That is a simple risk management, you are aware of the possibility of loss but you accept it. I think one may try this approach in privacy also. If you give your data to many providers it is much less risky, even if one provider decides to do something nasty, you will compromise your data only at one field. It is more convenient to have one provider that serves everything but it is also less secure for us as a customers - also in terms of maintaining market competitiveness.
I don’t think SailfishOS will ever gain a reasonable user base as long as there are no dedicated SailfishOS-only devices available. It’s only nerds like us which buy a phone and a seperate software license to install a somewhat experimental OS with less convenience features on rather outdated hardware with poor camera quality:-)
If there was a dedicated device with outstanding hardware specs (like the Nokias back in the good days) people would probably but it not because but even despite of SailfishOS…
7 Likes
I’ve skimmed this thread, and as
- one who has used SF phones as my only phone since 2014,
- an old, non tech savvy person
- one with limited needs - phone/sms/mms + BT pairing with my car, web browsing and camera, but NO gps, social media, android or any apps except notes, alarm clock and (occasionally) calendar (- hence much of the resources actually spent on various SF features are irrelevant to me),
here’s my view:
There is now only one reason I could possibly argue people start using SF (and which is the only SF motivation for myself): PRIVACY
And there is one big reason why I currently in general actually cannot recommend SF to others: The lack of any opportunity to by a new phone with SF preinstalled.
To unlock a phone and thereafter install SF is such a cumbersome and hairraising experience, that I dread it every time I need to.
(And I do that now, because my Xp 10 ii - which worked quite nicely after activation of VoLTE - suddenly went dead (probably because it has dropped too many times onto the floor …). I use weeks to build up the courrage and energy to start installing on the Xp 10 iii I have had lying around for half a year or so – and I really hate (a word I seldom use) being recommended to operate the phone on android, with the sim-card I’m going to use, prior to SF installation.)
That the phone models available for SF installation may be getting somewhat old, doesn’t matter - it’s good enough.
That there are various minor glitches, I can live with, (like currently phone on loudspeaker doesn’t work for those in the other end, or the camera only work with one lens).
But the basic communication functionality and web browsing must be rock solid and just work.
Looking around me I don’t find anybody else in my surroundings with both the necessary level of privacy concerns and technical skill and courage that I now could see as new users/customers of SF.
But I do see a growing awareness and concern about privacy.
So if we could buy a phone with working basic SF functionality, I will fight on the phoneOS barricades. Possibly arguing that one may be prepared to need to have a second, Android, phone for occasionally switching on for use of the apps that it’s now getting harder and harder to function in society without - But what don’t we do, when freedom is at stake? … Well, install a new OS on a phone, it normally won’t be, that is.
6 Likes
Yes, PRIVACY is the only compelling argument.
At that time I bought the J1 after the N900. Then from India the Aqafish without a CE mark.
It was no problem to live with and to come to terms with many deprivations, problems and challenges. This has taught me a lot about Linux and saved me a lot of unnecessary apps.
Unfortunately, this forum has lost a lot of quality. The old forum was still an exchange with developers and the opportunity to find solutions yourself. This forum has changed from the beginning to an information platform. I think that most developers and nerds left here a long time ago. I know that porting new devices is not easy. My XA2plus with 6GB RAM said goodbye in mid-December. I bought the Xperia 10 IV and was hoping that the phone would support SFOS4.5. I got the VollaPhone 22 as a replacement. Initially with multiboot and SFOS.
My impression at the moment is that there are a lot of problems with SFOS. I know the community from the maemo time and here only a few independent developers are left. Ellop finished Nokia and when Marc Dillon left Jolla, I feared that development.
The big companies should learn to work with the community. The community is free and only this spirit behind it keeps it alive.
I’m now 100% up to UbuntuTouch 16.04 and I’m hooked!
You have to know when to ride a dead horse. Thank you Sailfish for the great time!
For some it might be only compelling argument, for me it’s tinkerability, at least currently SFOS is the only way to have a linux userland with a working phone at the same time, in a couple of years the pinephones/librem5’s will probably catch up. One of the things that lock people in into android is their money investment in the ecosystem, with opengapps this is actually mitigated on sfos as you can have your paid apps working and then be able to degoogle yourself by shutting down app support once you’re done using them (for messaging apps doesn’t work that well, but at least you can reach out to people who are only on closed platforms). The freedom sfos gives is also unmatched on other systems, you want to sacrifice a bit of your privacy to get faster gps by sending imei to google? You can patch in supl agps. You don’t want to send your gps coords when calling emergency numbers, you can disable a service (hardcoded in grapheneos). CalyxOS one of the ‘privacy oriented’ roms got recently reviewed and it’s not looking good CalyxOS: De-Googled geht anders – Custom-ROMs Teil2 ⋆ Kuketz IT-Security Blog (in german)
1 Like
Hmmm. Apple device. Requires special software to install a ring tone.
Hmmmm. Apple device, will not connect via bluetooth with other devices to share.
Hmmm. Apple store blocks most apps that compete with it’s core services. etc, etc.
There’s more. Apple devices are well integrated with apple’s profit center and integrate poorly elsewhere. Regulation may finally end that, but what a pain. I still own a 1986 Classic if that’s of any interest.
3 Likes
and the polish that comes with that level of freedom.
I also find the UI is more sensible and less fumbly than IOs and Android. There are too many gestural anti-patterns in the competition.
2 Likes
If SFOS is in a usable state, which unfortunately currently is not really the case, there are too many bugs ans quirks which are not acceptable for less technical users, I’ll start promoting it. But until then I can’t justify spending social capital on it, as it will only cost me.
2 Likes
I’d say roughly the opposite was true. How many mobile OS have we seen die or dwindle into nothingness? I can think of about 10.
Android App Support is one of two key selling points of Sailfish (for the public). The other one is hard to encapsulate – it’s been basically being a decent alternative to iDroid.
Obviously, Sony offering a SF version of their phones would help but Jolla would have to pay for it.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. We are not Jolla’s market. Rostelcom were. Now Jolla are looking for the next big corporate client.
Almost anything on the consumer side, we need to do it ourselves.
Having happily gotten rid of my iPhone by changing jobs and still using two androids alongside my 10 III I must say that Sailfish is far from being not usable. I use it as a daily driver since SFX.
There are people that always find some reason why something for them is utterly unusable.
Other people don’t.
I do not see any use in this sort of discussion.
6 Likes
SFOS is very usable but @Jolla please fix the bugs with precedence.
edit: especially the Browser crash / OOM thing please!
5 Likes
I agree both on SFOS being very much usable as daily driver and the browser needing some stability and memory usage fixes. And bring back the ability to swipe open tabs to the side to close them instead of pressing the worlds smallest [X] in the tabs-view.
But never the less, I would still prioritise the GPS issue over this since it has been known for years now, and we still don’t have real fix for it other than bandaid fixes and community implementations to fix it, which ain’t the easiest ones for the non-tech savvy people to pull off, and probably is even bigger deal breaker for average mobile phone user than the current browser issues.
2 Likes
TBh with 4.5.0.16 GPS on Xperia 10, got fix much faster at least when I tested it last time.
2 Likes
A SFOS user shared a story on how he brought a new user over. The SFOS user told one of his colleagues he had a phone running Sailfish to sell. He suggested to his colleague to try out the phone for a month with no buying obligations.
2 Likes
I just can´t agree as long as things such as GPS, tethering on IPv6 cellular networks, missing bluetooth profiles, an antiquated default browser and an endless list of similar gripes exist. Too much risk for losing social capital when people find out that it’s just not a 100% smooth experience for the average person. And it just isn´t.
4 Likes
You don’t want to send your gps coords when calling emergency numbers, you can disable a service
any link to info how to handle this?