[Poll] Do you approve of SfOS apps developed with AI

By definition ‘reasoning’ (true of false) and intuition are entirely a human affair. There are no precursors (to humans) nor are there subsequent species (LLMs included) that have exhibited any thing like reasoning or intuition. There are arguments for animals exhibiting reasoning and intuition.

Since the domain of our discourse is bounded by human reason using human languages entirely at our disposal without mediation, I don’t know what talk of vitalism has to do with anything. It may be a truism, but that reasoning is a consequence of human brain activity (and possibly monkey/crow, etc, brain activity) is hardly spooky vitalism.

Just to cut this off, the only degrees I hold are in Psychology (biophysiology) and History (just BA level). At the primitive point we were at (1980s, 1990s) the mechansims (ie. neurotransmitters), the brain regions involved, the ‘inputs’ and ‘outputs’ and much of the rest of the plumbing were well understood. The linguistics departments had some other ideas. The philosophers were restless.

But it is a fact that the models (recursive neural networks, for instance) which have led us to the current state in ‘articial intelligence’ are based on the work of psychologists and biologists dissecting the functioning of the brain. The language they used to describe it (inadequate though it was then as now) was picked up by people doing work with logic and computation. Where you get the idea that AI research is divorced from the other sciences is beyond me.

I realized at a certain point that we were discussing something that is truly difficult. Namely, the random. I’ve been thinking about if for a number of days since it is something that I have been dealing in/with in hardware development. The distinction between random and chaotic, being worth noting …

Where most people will (I believe) equate random and chaotic behaviour, chaotic behaviour in the mathematical sense is not random. It may, or generally is understood to be, periodic. Truly random, on the other hand is not really a mathematical construct at all. It is a lack of any possible order. So, not subject to any axiom or law. Hence, beyond the ken of mathematics or computer science. We do, however, try to simulate random. And succeed to ‘some degree’.

I have been building several kinds of chaotic systems (one verging on, verging on randomness). One of the factors in moving from chaotic systems to randomness is dependent on the complexity of the number of nodes (resistance/capacitance, etc) in a circuit. And the error inherent in the components in said system. From the vantage point of the (human) observer, what is still in all probability merely ‘chaotic’ and so, periodic, behaviour, will often have the appearance of the random. The system I’m referring to is logic implemented in CMOS and subject to fluctuations in a (more or less) complex RC network.

Fazit, given a suitably complex RC network and a reasonably long period of time (minutes, hours) I can simulate the random with a merely chaotic system. In CMOS.

Just a thought.

An interesting thought indeed. I was thinking about this too, in particular looking back on some of the other posts from less frequent posters who make a very valid point about human uncertainty (true randomness in my opinion).

I think, to a certain extent, it matters where the boundaries are and what we observe from inside/outside those boundaries.

For example, in my world view computers are just dumb machines that do what they are told in a wholly deterministic way - they cannot ‘choose’ to do anything on their own. Imagine if they could, if they were truly intelligent and sentient. I’d hate to think what would happen to a payroll system if the computer could choose to ignore human imposed instructions and pay employees anything it pleased!

So then you layer an LLM on top of the computer. No ‘temperature’ variables, no pseudo random number generators, etc - its still wholly deterministic, incapable of true random behaviour, incapable of making self aware choices. If you ask the LLM exactly the same question in exactly the same way, multiple times (without changing anything else like the Knowledge base, or its algorithms, etc) you’ll get exactly the same answer.

But now lets add some randomness. You ask the LLM a question and its first response is always “give me a number, any number”. So the first time you just pick ‘4’, the next time you choose ‘873’, the next time you choose ‘4,478,963’. It uses the number you give it as its ‘creativity seed’. Then it gives you the answer to your original question.

Keep asking exactly the same question in exactly the same way multiple times and the answer will be different and truly unpredictable.

If you draw your boundary around the LLM and look inside it seems like you have a non-deterministic LLM producing unpredictable outputs. But if you draw your boundary around the LLM and the human and look inside it becomes obvious that the uncertainty comes from the human and not the LLM.

Similarly if the human always chose the same number, but asked the same question in a different way each time, the same unpredictable output is likely to occur. But again the uncertainty is down to the human, not the machine.

Now, the human gets bored with choosing numbers every time a question is asked, so pseudo-randomness is introduced into the model. Now we have a kind of fake randomness built in. If we design our ‘random seed’ cleverly then we can make the LLM (computer plus software + data) appear non-deterministic. It isn’t of course, but if by doing this it helps the “human + AI model” together become more productive then why not?

And why shouldn’t you use such a tool to help code software?

If I read @attah 's comments right, the difference between pseudo-random and true random is just semantics. But I actually thinks this is huge. Once machines truly become random and therefore truly non-deterministic (i.e they can choose, or their own accord, without a human agency being inside that boundary and driving the uncertainty) then we have probably started the crossover between artificial intelligence and real intelligence.

And if you think controlling and regulating AI is difficult (which it is), just wait until we have to do it with ‘sentient’ machines.

And finally, dredged up deep from my memory, and for those that think ‘AI chatbots’ are relatively recent and a complete departure from what went before, check out Eliza, perhaps the very early origins of LLMs, from 1966 (exactly 60 years ago) ELIZA - Wikipedia .

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Hello All,

I am a long time reader, first time contributor; I have been enjoying reading the ebb and flow of ideas in this thread over the past few days, some excellent insights and perspectives. As a ‘lapsed programmer’ I can’t add anything to the ‘AI tool/weapon’ discussion but there is another side to be explored … that of the user. Whether they be an expert or novice, I suspect that many Jolla/SFOS users fall into the ‘technology enthusiast’ classification rather than ‘seasoned programmer’. With enthusiasm comes ideas, the native app catalogue could use some enrichment which these enthusiasts may provide. Utilising AI to help to realise ideas may not necessarily be a bad thing… as long as it is ‘done right’. So to my point … rather than putting up the barricades and manning the walls, perhaps we should embrace the inevitable and facilitate good coding practices when using AI as a coding tool.

‘AI coding … the Jolla course’

If there were a library of seed Prompts to address UI, languages and versions, libraries, compilers, program flow control code, data storage, cyber security, GDPR/personal data, , etc,etc, then this would help produce more deterministic code. It would also make maintenance easier by recompiling with a new/different Prompt set. The Promt could also include a watermark or signature to aid in the review of apps when they are submitted for review, obviously not a guaranty of quality but at least an indication that the foundations were correctly laid.

By ‘fixing’ the prompt we would be reducing the possibility and magnitude of non-deterministic output … the LLM then becomes less ‘creative’ and more of a pseudo-code / requirements to code converter, i.e. a productivity tool. The unpredictability then comes down to what the program does, the human input, not how it is done, the AI code generator.

Even better would be an SLM trained on SFOS, but that would probably require a benefactor with deep pockets … unless the Jolla crew already has one…?

I would vote for… ‘Yes … but’.

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Note that I’ve dropped the dumb. A machine is neither dumb nor not dumb. The states of the machine are subject to many influences. The more gates, the more influences. Computers are subject to the laws of physics.

But, even at a higher level of abstraction, say a compiler, the operations on some source may well become subject to uncertainty (aha!) with the change in ONE symbol (< vs. > for instance). Recent experience has shown that though I may be able to repeat a result, obtain even something that looks like consistent behaviour, it cannot be easily explained. Not that I have not attempted it. For all PRACTICAL purposes, it is not deterministic behaviour. Since an explanation is lacking, it might as well be mysticism. I do know a solution to the problem of making it more deterministic. I have the code to get me out of the dilemma. But that is not as interesting as trying to determine HOW the code works at ALL under some obscure conditions (precise frequency of operations 276 mHz and -O2). Basically, the code should not work as it does under any conditions.

The compiler applies heuristics to certain patterns (much as an LLM will) and those will under some 99.99% of cases produce a result which is just so. And then it does not. Well, so much for deterministic.

My main problems with coding agents and generative ai as a whole, is that most of the big providers train their models on dubiously or outright illegally obtained code (or art). Also, the datacenters needed to train and run them are being built at ridiculous cost, cutting actual people off from water and electricity, and disturbing them day and night with their noise.

This is why I will never support generative ai.

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I only used the word ‘dumb’ to make the point that computers cannot yet think, abstract, choose, etc in the way that humans do - the ‘intelligence’ is only artificial.

I actually don’t disagree with anything you say in this post - I guess what is happening here is that I am putting a different interpretation on it.

Part of the problem is that computers - hardware, software, etc are becoming so complicated that the humans designing them and programming them are prone to lose control (stay with me for a while!) over what they have designed or coded.

If we go back in history to Babbage and his difference engine (and the later more complicated analytical engine), these were purely mechanical, and in fact at the start the ‘hardware’ and the ‘software’ were pretty much the same thing. The ‘hardware’ was various levers, cogs, handles, etc and the ‘software’ was how the cogs, etc were arranged, how many teeth each had, etc. You turned the handle and out popped your answer. You could see with your own eyes simply and easily that the machine was wholly deterministic and could not generate random results.

But then the very early true computers (Eniac, Colossus, etc) separated the software from the hardware and in time we had the Von Neumann model of a computer (volatile storage to hold instructions and data, a CPU or mill to process them, etc) and these were way more complicated digital electronic computers, both in hardware design and software.

As things got more and more complicated, the propensity for bugs or errors became greater and greater, and the task of finding and correcting them became more and more complicated and more and more expensive. And, I suspect, a lot of people will only think of ‘computer bugs’ as being a software thing and not a hardware thing as well.

As humans we make mistakes and compromises. And sometimes we make compromises to solve a particular problem whilst acknowledging and accepting that it will make some other situation worse.

On the 803 the machine code instruction for shifting the bits in a hardware register right (or was it left?), in other words doubling the value of the bits in a word was ‘55’. So if you had a single bit in the word representing ‘1’ the instruction ‘55 1’ would shift the bits in the word by 1 position, so the value of the word was now 2. If you used ‘55 2’ the bits would be shifted by two positions, so the value of the word would then be 4.

The 803’s boot loader (back then known as the initial instructions) basically loaded a program off five channel paper tape. Instructions and input data were coded on tape in 5 channel telecode. To fill the 803’s 39 bit word the boot loader would read a character off the tape which would then appear in the lower five bits of a 39 bit hardware register (known as the accumulator). The boot loader would then do a ‘55 5’ shifting that five bit character to the next five higher bits, making space at the lower end for the next character to be read off tape. This process continued until the accumulator registered an overflow condition (i.e. it was a 39 bit word, so you could read and shift 8 characters off tape before the last bit of the first character read ‘dropped off the end’ so to speak). When the overflow condition was detected the contents of the accumulator was stored in RAM and the whole process started again. This kept going for ages as the whole reel of paper tape was read and the program plus data slowly built up in the 803’s RAM. For a short program, this was OK - but if you were trying to load a large and complicated program, an Algol compiler for instance, well, you might as well go get a cup of coffee.

The solution to speed things up?

An FPU. If you had the optional (at huge extra cost) FPU fitted, you got a new machine code instruction, ‘65’. This worked exactly the same as the ‘55’ instruction but operated about 10 times as fast. Paper tape literally flew through the reader so fast that it remained horizontal as it came out for about 3 feet before gravity made it fall into the tape bins.

But that of course now gave programmers the opportunity, which they didn’t have without the FPU, to do math calculations with the FPU. And, as we have discussed, this compromise leads to errors when dealing with fractions.

Greater complications in computer hardware design today (e.g. GPUs,) have brought yet more opportunity for hardware bugs which deliver seemingly random and unpredictable (but in my view still not non-deterministic for the reasons I have stated above) results. I think that computer hardware and software is now so complicated, and has so many accepted compromises, that humans are now having a really hard time of ensuring that they work properly and predictably all the time. And in some cases they don’t, or perhaps even can’t.

So yes, I agree, there is in all likelihood a ‘ghost in the machine’ and we can use that to drive creativity or whatever in an AI model to such a level that it practically makes no difference to those who use it. But its still deterministic for any given set of instructions, input, rounding errors, CMOS voltages, germanium transistor bias voltages, hardware bugs, design compromises, etc, etc - and hopefully it always will be until simulated artificial intelligence in computers gives way to real intelligence (if it ever can).

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By what definition. By definition of 18th-century-chemistry synthetic organic compounds are entirely a living thing affair. In case your glorious biophysiology degree didn’t teach you this: a statement that is true by definition is not falsifiable, and thus in no way can be a scientific statement.

Equally, without a real definition, such statement is begging the question, just like vitalism. It is effectively saying some phenomenon resulted from human brain activity is a consequence of human brain activity. True, but pointless.

No one ever stated this. Where you get this idea is, in turns, truly beyond me. For anything I have said, I am exactly stating certain arguments brought up to be against AI such as “no true reasoning” or “no true intuition” is divorced from scientific method.

Apart from you attempt of appeal to authority. Your statement about neuroscience progress can be easily find wrong with a simple glimpse at recent progress in the field’s journals. I am starting to wonder whether your degree is actually history of psychology (ad hominem, I know, but proper for a not-even-well-played ad verecundiam).

Wake up, LLMs are not RNN.

Can we please stay on topic? If we zoom out, the point of your discussion was whether AI would be able to add true randomness as in (erratic) human behaviour, BUT is it what we’d want from a helpful AI assistant?

I thought we were talking about using AI for development, and the quintessence was “yes, viable BUT only when trained from adequate sources” which even I (a “f*** you, AI” guy) can live with.

Your escalating discussions are very educative, full of different & interesting views on certain problems BUT too far from the original question, bringing the danger of derailing with it.

I am not annoyed, I only hope for some kind of educated consent on the topic.

Cheers

Well the original question was “Do you approve of SFOS apps developed with AI?

But to answer that question you actually have to understand what AI is and what its limitations and benefits are. You need a context to give a proper answer, and that, I would suggest, is what this thread is discussing.

So far there seems to be five schools of thought (obviously paraphrasing here):

  1. The ‘Head In the Sand’ School - AI just produces a load of useless slop and I would never trust it. In other words a purely emotional response without really thinking about the implications.

  2. The ‘Yes, but’ School - those who are quite happy to use or develop apps generated by AI provided a human has reviewed the code and (a) understands what has been generated, (b) understands the limitations of AI coding and how to overcome these in a trustworthy manner, and (c) uses AI code generation only as a tool, not as the be all and end all.

  3. The ‘World View Implications’ School. In other words those who don’t necessarily dismiss AI as a tool for code generation out of hand, but are worried about its impact on the environment and its insatiable thirst for resources.

  4. The ‘Inevitability of AI Coding’ School - those who believe that Pandora’s box has been opened and that AI in coding cannot be uninvented, ignored or dismissed. In other words it is here to stay and anybody who ignores this development is rather like King Canute sitting in his chair on the beach and trying to stop the tide from coming in.

  5. The ‘Full Embracers’ School - those who want to harness AI technology in coding in whatever form and make it work the best they can, but still within some kind of protective framework.

In my view all of the above, with the exception of the first school of thought, are honourable and well thought out positions to hold on AI in coding. But to get to those positions, and to understand why others hold the positions they do, I would suggest that an academic discussion is sometimes necessary.

Personally, I have learned a lot from others on this forum in such discussions (even if I disagree with them), and advancing your learning is never a bad thing.

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I clicked my answer without even writing a full paragraph of rumination.

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Well, good for you …

I didn’t click any response… But this indepth dive and all the historic context + trial to sort a bit different positions is very interesting.

Reducing complex questions to quick & simple answers can have undesirable consequences, imho.

Thanks to those who took the time to sort, formulate and share their ideas.

It also helped me to position myself.

I believe i’d rather be in school number 2.

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By the very fact of there being a definition at all. Where else would the definition come from but from humans? EDIT: my quote foo is not a given.

The idea of pursuing the history of philosophy in this forum (or any forum for that matter) to plumb the depths of ontology (for human reason IS human being) is the debate I wanted to cut off by stating my background and hence preference to the substantive part of what I might discuss.

No, what I was stating is that reasoning IS brain activity. There is obviously more involved since we have an extended brain, so to speak. For instance, proprioception, but obviously sense information in general, sight, etc. That perception itself can be reasoning can be argued but I won’t.

Your projecting ancient scientific debates onto the current debates is where I came to this conclusion. That you are more interested in a debate than you are about the current state of the science.

It does not need to be ‘true’ this or that. It is not of a kind. Until we build machines that replicated all of the processes involved in what we call reasoning, how will we even compare the one activity with the other?

EDIT: quotes out of control

I appeal to my experience, not my authority. My area of interest was neurophysiology (not biophysiology). The state of our knowledge in the 1980s (when I was studing) was far short of what it is today. My point was, I’m not interested in rehashing Daniel Dennett’s arguments when it’s clear that the science involved is as it ever has evolving. That our understanding of the mechanisms of thought has improved a great deal since the 1980s is what is proved by the contents of the journals you have evidently not taken the time to audit. You don’t appear to be interested in the actual content of those journals?

RNNs I mentioned since they are historical precursors with an obvious ties to the progress in biology and psychology. Before I built my first LLM, I’ve used numerous models, the most common being RNNs for various purposes. But, whatever.

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On rereading this a couple of times, I’m not entirely certain what it means?

I think it means that in former times tge assumption was, that chchemical reactions that take place in the living body cannot be replicated outside the body, in vitro.
There was some vital force assumed in the living body (vital force, vitalism) that even the most gifted scientists cannot have in vitro.
Today we know that the chemical reactions in the body follow the same physicochemical principles in vivo AND in vitro.
The thermodynamics and reaction mechanisms are identical, there is no vital super force in living organisms, the organic biochemical in vitro and in vivo follow the identical same science, no vitalism hexhex required

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That is an interpretation of vitalism. The statement, however, is that
synthetic organic compounds == a living thing. That’s what I found confusing.

I believe I understand the vitalism attacks, though it’s one of those ‘by analogy’ attacks.

I actually wanted to exit the discussion by mentioning that I’m more interested in the science than the polemics, and inadvertently did the opposite by not choosing my words well.

Since I’ve gotten myself into it, I’ll really muddy the waters:
To speak of falsifiable and hence, scientific, propositions we need to discern between a priori and a posteriori arguments. The scientific falsifiable falls into the a posteriori side of propositions. The problem is that REASON is an ‘a priori’ to even speak of ‘a priori’. Making propositions about reason requires reason as an a priori to even continue to make propositions at all. What the LLM camp would have you believe is that making propositions IS reason since you can simulate propositional logic with an LLM. Etc, etc.

That is also more or less Dennett’s position. I believe this simplification to be false since it reduces reason to language game and reasoning is, in my opinion, obviously more than language. That is, consists many of sensory experience or qualia, of which language is one and produces many products (paintings, moving an object from the left to the right hand, etc) The products of reasoning are often language. But not by far the most. So, here comes the slippery slope.

Visual reasoning in animals takes place constantly and doesn’t require the human bit. Nor language bit as we know it. Now, by means of propositional logic alone you can chain the propositions all the way to, well, LLMs reason. I’ll spare you the details, since you can simply read Rorty and Dennett to see how the debate goes. I wanted to avoid unrolling this, since it’s already verbose.

EDIT: further reason to avoid this subject… The main reason I elected to not continue in psychology is that one of the products of it was behaviorism. That view of the ‘mind’ was to declare it a black box and to develop techniques (operant conditioning) to reduce the science to inputs and outputs, black box be damned. Current use of pharmaceuticals also has this quality (AHD drugs used with children, coming to mind) This also resembles our use of LLMs, though we have a better understanding of LLMs than we do of the mind.

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Agreed.

So far, this discussion contained a lot of different and interesting food for thought - and that is very important for such a sensitive topic. In the end, it’s all about agreeing on boundaries and subsequently defending those boundaries. But to be able to define, set and defend such boundaries, we need to make educated decisions based on reliable information. That currently happens here, which is very good of course.

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One of the most interesting discussions here, I read Dennett in my youth. Still today, in my view consciousness is one of the greatest wonders and miracles in the universe. The complexity of the topics discussed repels trolls away :winking_face_with_tongue:

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