Forum censorship - The Issue

I didn’t ignore anything. It was me who actually created this separate thread that you are now reading as a result of this request. Yes, I didn’t do it immediately the moment the request was made - I have a life outside this forum and have to choose what I do when based on all sorts of priorities that people here will have no knowledge of. Your criticism that I didn’t jump to attention immediately when asked to do so is therefore uncalled for.

Of course I expect all contributors to be treated with respect - and believe it or not I feel that should include even myself.

Ok, now that is going too far (weren’t we talking about respect a minute ago?). I merely expressed a hope that in similar situations in the future a different course of action may be chosen.

I have to confess that I am beginning to feel that my time contributing to this forum is coming to an end.

When you feel that the audience no longer likes what you are doing, its probably time to leave the stage.

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@poetaster, I fail to follow your line of arguments and line of thinking.

Starting with @Steve_Everett’s last paragraph, to which I wholeheartedly agree:

Where I do agree is that there is nothing productive to be gained by guessing who the flagger(s) was/were. He, she or they will know who they are and might, having read all of this, choose to act differently in similar situations in the future. In my book that will be progress.

How can that be “[…] a veiled threat for someone that has ‘thin skin’. […] I don’t take it that way. But someone probably will.”?
To me this is a logically incomprehensible and distinctively vague (“probably someone”) statement, probably just to express some counter-“argument” for the (thin) argument’s sake.

Unfortunately, I also cannot concur with any other statement in this last post of yours (which is sad, because conversations with you seemed to be based on some mutual understanding in the past):

  • You do propose to treat “moderators” differently, although they are not marked as such, hence are not recognisable in this capacity.
    Additionally it is unclear which duties, responsibility and measures a “moderator” has.
  • You do propose to treat “sailors” (i.e., Jolla employees) differently, although they are not marked as such, hence are not recognisable in this capacity.

In addition to aforementioned points, which cannot be taken into account by forum users, because they are opaque, I fail to believe that you seriously consider that thread to be “critical of his employer” (i.e., Jolla).

And in my understanding this post and the very existence of this thread shows that Steve and I well understood and positively reacted to Viges’ request. But as usual, there are always some people counteracting to get a derailed thread back on track (e.g., you), because it takes some time for that message to “sink in” (i.e., be properly honoured by a critical mass; “by all” has been proven to be unreachable) to move to a different thread (i.e., this one here).
Hence from my point of view more than a “modicum of respect” was ultimately shown.

But your central statement simply leaves me puzzled:

When will someone finally acknowledge responsibility and stop trying to pass the buck?

  • Who “tries to pass the buck” to whom in your opinion?
  • Which responsibility taken by whom shall be acknowledged by whom?
    What and who do you intend to address with that?

I hoped (originally even “expected”) Jolla to take this derailed thread (which is not at all a catastrophe, but rather a minor accident, which happens) as a trigger to analyse how their rules and configuration of this forum software fostered the derailing.
To me it became obvious by that incident and all the discussion which followed:

  • Encouraging users to flag posts quickly is a speedy path to escalation.
    This guidance should be strongly toned down.
  • Only ad hominem attacks should be off limits, because everything else is subjective and debatable, for example terms like “foul language”, “derogative statements” etc.
    Without such a clearly cut and simple rule, which is easy to comprehend and (most importantly) to apply, the rule itself is problematic, because it can be abused as it leaves a lot of room for interpretation and will always be non-congruent with someone’s perception.
  • The configuration of this forum software with “the first flagging suppresses a post, the second flagging fully censors it” while retaining full anonymity for the censor, constitutes an invitation to play malicious “power games” for some and thus is by itself “evil”.

And I seriously wonder why you fiercely defend Jolla’s silence on this topic (e.g., in this thread, which @vige explicitly requested) and lack of adaption of their guidance, rules or the configuration of this forum software as something positive, only to conclude with “so I’m muting this thread. I don’t have time for this. Sorry.”!?!

Excuse me, that I feel strongly encouraged to reply, that this is not nice behaviour at all in my perspective.

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@olf I totally agree with you. English is not my native language and I do not have the time to express my thoughts in similar way.
My concern is that this little and insignificant forum is mirroring where our civilization is going and I feel sad. I feel sad, because people do not know what is to be in totalitarian state. They do not understand logic and Enlightment and sadly are taking positions of power, so that they can rule over us.
For me from social point of view this is unacceptable and even less from logical point of view. I.e to demand respect and to not give such is … well, according my observation the new normal on the liberal side.
My demand is still - please do not release buggy software. Just stop doing this!
And I have the right to be pi**ed off when this is happening over and over.
Then when this frustration comes out, the moralists come to teach me how to behave … I am speechless. Honestly I can imagine how Giordano Bruno felt when he was burned alive.
The worst I fear is that the moralists will not sit down and think if they may be wrong and learn something, which by definition is lack of intelligence. Please prove me, I am wrong!
Thank you!

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Nobody is being burned alive :slight_smile:
This is being made bigger then it is.

I also don’t think any real opinion is being silenced. If worded somewhat reasonably it doesn’t get flagged. If there is anything reasonably worded criticism being flagged, can you point me to anything? And no, not that infamous thread that was derailed into lots of drama :slight_smile:

As for all the venting of frustrations, did it do anything good, except causing a lot of drama that seems to be going on endlessly here?

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@marcelpol
Bruno and many others were burned alive for speaking the truth. And no - it is not being made bigger than it is. I do not see why I should buy a second device to do testing before I update my daily driver.
The truth is that the OS is buggy and I once again ask Jolla to stop releasing buggy versions.
ATM on the 10 II the network is not working properly when some Android apps are running. I mean the network connection suddenly disappears. I will confirm this with other router. But forget this, did I mention bluetooth?
I do not know what else you want to hear.
I fully understand the complexity of use cases behind the scene and I am patient and thankful to Jolla for doing this great work. My problem is with their Nokia legacy in the mentality.
I hope you get it.

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@olf
I’m using SF from this relases as daily driver, so it’s not true “totally buggy OS”. There is some problems and unfinished functions and no one regret that.
Emotional expressions are not suitable on technical forum because topics are extremely long and from user POV i need waste time for reading this.

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There’s a bunch of people using a totally unusable OS happily as a daily driver.

And maybe there are others who have a certain attitude towards strong words.

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Unfortunately, some of them have very pink tinted glasses on.

[Edit - 14.10.21]
I did not delete my post…?!

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“Totally buggy OS”
“Best, most developed OS”

Both aren’t true.

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It is language and as human one should tolerate others opinion and way of expression.
We are not discussing laws and formulae on nuclear physics forum.
And the worst of all is that the focus shifted from what was said to how it was said.
Now energy is burned not on the what but on the how

If you say things different from what they are or what you mean, you will get confusion :slight_smile:
There are many people reading along here, clarity is better to get something across. We have many different people here from different cultures and backgrounds, you might understand that :wink:
Adding confusion almost on purpose will get confusing conversations that cost a lot of energy for the readers and a lot of conversation time to get things cleared up. Blaming the reader does not help here.

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As I tried to explain thoroughly, no one is in the position to state that with absolute validity! Side note: And “no one” excludes you from doing so and that statement to be valid, too.
Doing that exactly is a totalitarian position / perspective.

If you want that, you first must become employed at the Ministry of Truth (in 1984). :wink:

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Are you absolutely sure that it was not you who did the “(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)” on 2021-10-13 or 2021-10-14?

Please mind that this is a critical accusation, because AFAICS only the owner of a post and moderators / “leaders” can do that (i.e., only 38 people who are all “appointed by staff”).
And judging by its content, I cannot see why one would want that post to be deleted.

Well, I didn’t deliberately delete my post.
I was a bit surprised when I read “post withdrawn by author…”.
I don’t want to suspect anyone either.
The longer I think about how this could have happened, I come to the realization that the forum software could have played a trick on me here.
Click on the three dots to open the extended menu. If you click again with the intention of closing the menu again, you inevitably click on the trash.

Coming back to this one.

It looks there may be no “forum police” but at least some “crime scene cleaner” did it’s work?
E.g my (and other people’s post(s)) are gone for good now?
If you want to check see within this topic @SteveEverett 's post which links and quotes my one, which now seems to be deleted.

NOW I feel censored!

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Yes, many posts in the original thread are gone, apparently all the messages which were in “hidden state” before.
And the links to the deleted posts have become rewritten to point to the base thread!
<sarcasm>This is censorship is properly done: Remove any evidence that the censored content ever existed.</sarcasm>

Now this has become really bad:
Contrary to the repeated statements by some sailors that no censorship occurs, it is clear now the this is untrue!
And modelling “it is just community people doing some flagging” was apparently untrue, too.

Now I do agree with @Steve_Everett that this shall be escalated to Jolla’s management, in order to stop these evil actions and save this forum from fully turning into “1984”.

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@vige,

  1. can you please restore the deleted posts in the original thread.
  2. do you understand what happened?

I’m not sure. If you can be a bit more specific: Which posts exactly, and why do you think those should be restored? More specifically: what exactly has changed so that they no longer violate our rules (see FAQ - Sailfish OS Forum). The post which I could find by following the hints above (i.e the one written by @peterleinchen) was originally flagged as being off-topic. The way I see it, it still is off-topic - the post did contain one word about “total buggy os xperia 10 plus”.

Not entirely. My guess is that after some time it becomes impossible for regular users to view the hidden posts. At least I could see the post I mentioned above, so it wasn’t entirely removed from the database.

Can you please be specific what you are not sure about?
a. “Not sure” if you technically are able to restore these posts.
b. “Not sure” if you want to restore these posts.

If you can be a bit more specific: Which posts exactly,

All the ones which have bee flagged, were in “hidden” state and now are in “vanished” state (at least for regular forum users).
(It must be about 10 messages which are affected.)

and why do you think those should be restored?

a. Because this way the flagging process is indeed results in opinions being suppressed (i.e., censorship).
b. Much of that thread does not make any sense without these posts as context.

More specifically: what exactly has changed so that they no longer violate our rules (see FAQ - Sailfish OS Forum ).

Can you please describe in exactly which way you think they violated these rules?
And how this violation warrants a censoring them.

The post which I could find by following the hints above (i.e the one written by @peterleinchen) was originally flagged as being off-topic. The way I see it, it still is off-topic - the post did contain one word about “total buggy os xperia 10 plus”.

The FAQ names “bad behavior” as a reason for flagging, nothing else.

Well Jolla runs and configures this forum software, hence is responsible for what it is doing.

Jolla states “Foster freedom. We do not believe in walled gardens, we prefer the open sea. We want our products and services to free you to express yourself as you see fit, not lock you down to a view of the world imposed on you by us.”.
But this forum software configuration fosters suppression of opinions, hidden trolling and abuse (as discussed in that thread, specifically some of the now vanished messages)!

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Both.

They were off-topic. The fact that the authors of those posts kept writing the off-topic posts clearly annoyed other forum members, otherwise they wouldn’t have flagged them. Removing posts which violate our rules hardly counts as censorship.

Please read the FAQ again, and try to understand the message there. The second chapter already states “Please treat this discussion forum with the same respect you would a public park. We, too, are a shared community resource — a place to share skills, knowledge and interests through ongoing conversation.”

You are free to share your opinions here. You are doing it right now. However, when people are discussing things, it’s not good behaviour to go and shout your opinions about off-topic matters in the middle of the discussions. Each thread in this forum is about a single topic.

Let me repeat this: The topic which included those hidden posts was about bugs in Xperia 10 II. Those hidden posts were not about that topic. You are free to repeat those posts in threads which are relevant to them.

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