With the repeated requests in the referred thread to stay on-topic (Xperia 10) and create a separate thread for other issues, I see the “freedom of speech” aspect there somewhat comparable to something like going to a tax office and demanding that the clerks must listen to an arbitrary length free speech on how the government is problematic (or better, go full Abe Simpson), even as a queue of people wanting to discuss their taxation issues is forming up.
@olf excellent. Thank you for taking your time and putting forward in such logical matter my own thoughts. I hope someone listens/reads
the comparison is false. I personally do not force anyone to listen nor I do cause a queue anywhere. I just have an opinion and hope that someone would listen. You are free to read, to agree or to go on with your live.
Also one could request anything, but I could follow or not as I like, because I do not live in totalitarian state however the experience here feels like such. Mind that in communism or in national socialism you were jailed based on anonymous annunciation.
Sorry to say this, but I feel like liberal people become even more totalitarian than communists and it is not a secret that the mindset of Jolla/Sailfish is liberal.
For me it is perfectly OK to have opinion and to discuss this even with emotion, but to flag anonymously based on subjectivity and cause the person to be banned is really evil and medieval.
It contradicts to democracy and any kind of rule of law.
@tomdi “Total Buggy OS …” is exactly what I personally think it is. Perhaps we have different standards, but you should agree that I and others have the right to express ourselves as we like.
And what I said is that since 3.4.0.x it is unusable and more and more things are not working.
This is the reason for my frustration. While you have probably other experience or just do not care, I do not argue with you.
Also if you do not know the history of N9 I strongly recommend to go deeper into it, because IMO some of the same people bring up the same mentality, thinking that they can release buggy software, while they obviously can sit down and fix bugs.
I’ll trust, you (and the other members) don’t just flag posts because you have a different opinion. AFAIR I never flagged a post on this forum …but I would without bad feelings if I came across a potentially problematic post: just a chance for a moderator to have a look (it’s work, should be rarely needed). I’m not aware btw that a flag leads to banning (as @deloptes has written).
In principle I agree. But in reality it is sometimes complicated. And this forum is just a small phone (OS) forum.
I appreciate that a “Total buggy” title can be posted but I can also accept that there are limits. For me this is not “suppression of free speech” but an attempt to keep the forum positive, friendly and on-topic.
It would be great if we could trust people to behave properly, but how would we know? They are (a) anonymous, and (b) not providing any proper explanations for suppressing a post or causing it to be suppressed.
“I guess I said it before: I do hate the possibility within this forum to censor other people’s posts/opinions.
Please do stop this!”
It is not offensive, contains no bad language, does not represent a contentious point of view - in fact really all it contains is a short, polite request by Peter for whomever is carrying on the current suppressions of posts in that thread to stop doing this.
Yet this post too was suppressed.
What legitimate reason could there be for doing this? Without any explanation as to why this post was considered a problem serious enough for it to be hidden it simply looks like the person(s) responsible for the ongoing suppression of posts simply didn’t like his, her or their judgement or opinion openly questioned.
Just my two bits, although I would prefer this flagging to never occur (I’ll read with warts, et.al), I think it’s a compromise. I’m not that sensitive (you can curse at me like a trucker, if you please). Some people are more so. The flagging mechanism ‘disfigures’ the dialog from my vantage point. For others maybe it’s healthy?
What does remain is that the content CAN be seen and one can clearly see that someone takes issue. I’m not sure that it gets better than this? If we want all cases that someone finds offensive to be escalated to a moderator by default, I believe this will result in REAL censorship.
As it is now, one can have a dialog about it, as we are here. And, in the initial thread we can see the original content if we wish. We can also see that it got out of hand and stuff started being flagged on a whim for the sake of whimsy? Maybe?
I think we should try to keep a sense of humor, even if we’re offended. I wasn’t offended by anyone. Just found the flagging annoying.
At least, imo, the knowhow doesn’t have to be 100 %; if most people “behave properly” most of the time, all is fine. And I hope that e.g. Peter Leinchen in the mentioned post just shrugs the flag away as “unexplicable” (it certainly is for me).
Maybe because I’m unable to see the “suppressed” part as strongly as you – I explicitly clicked the link with the hidden/flagged contents (and paid more attention than were it non-flagged) – I don’t take much offense of a (small) couple of false or doubtfully flagged posts.
Damn. I had to try. I flagged my own content as off-topic. I must admit, I felt the power
Presumably, if I keep this up, YOU will eventually flag it
Nope. I’ve never flagged anybody’s post and I don’t intend to do so in the future either. My preferred method is always to address the issue directly, constructively and objectively where I am able to do so.
Whilst I may not agree with some who post here, even those whom I find offensive, I will continue to defend their right to do so.
As for your new-found discovery of power, just be careful - who knows where it will lead …
Sorry, I didn’t mean YOU, you, I meant, YOU, the people reading this post !
This is a classic point, as a matter of fact. That poorly chosen words, in my case YOU, are readily interpreted in a way they were not intended.
I love this thread. In any case, I didn’t mean you, Steve. I’d never accuse you of being a flagger …
I don’t understand the confusion about the feedback, but well… I also don’t get the impression that the feedback was received in any way.
The quoted Jolla policy rule was:
Improve the Discussion
… Be respectful of the topics and the people discussing them, even if you disagree with some of what is being said.
But in the thread that triggered all this I see quite a lot of disrepectful communication happening, like:
“IMO there is no excuse for the sh*t delivered (unfortunately).”
“It is indeed a disgrace to release such rubbish […]”
I think this kind of communication is highly disrepectful to the people creating the software. I prefer not reading this kind of rubbish on a forum like this, I think it is toxic. I didn’t flag anything, but I am perfectly fine with people doing that flagging.
If you don’t agree, I am fine with that too. But if you use this kind of words you can expect people to protest against it, it is simple dynamics. Respect goes both ways, it is not something you can demand to get, it is something you can give too.
Since I read this post and it made me thinking I’d like to share my observation. It is indeed a lack of respect and some offensive language in some posts that can put some community members off. So I can understand the wish to flag some post as offensive. I don’t know whether flagging is a good reaction though. However, everyone should be aware that it matters how an opinion or a judgement is expressed. If it is respectful and non-offending, it is fine. So it is not about “the right to express ourselves as we like” because even if I would like to shout I shouldn’t and wouldn’t do so here.
“Total buggy OS” means, nothing works properly. This isn’t true. We are on technical forum and we should focus on facts only. Not on freedom to emotional expression.
it doesn’t really matter. We are not in a school of mathematics or precise science - people do overdrive things
Did someone asked the author to change the title? And btw. we are not discussing this title here, but the censorship that occurred in the discussion
It doesn’t matter. Uhh, really? Then why this topic? It doesn’t matter to me
The so-called “censorship” is a reaction to things that happened before. I get the impression you don’t understand the dynamics. I still get the impression the feedback, even if spelled out, isn’t being picked up.
If you cannot read the audience, you might have a hard time getting the message across.
Overdriving things will add noise. If you care about the content of the message, adding noise to it, the emotional overdrive, does not help to get the message across.
Also, as a (hobby) developer myself, this kind of lashing out would demotivate me very much. I don’t understand why you would choose to demotivate Jolla developers. You are not being paid for this by Microsoft, huh?
Censorship is a sensible topic, especially for people from ex-eastern bloc (myself included ). I think , because of nowadays increasing of censorship in the social and media life, there is a trigger for some guys (myself included) against any kind of cesorship. You cannot deny that there is censorship on this forum. It is obvious, but you are also right that maybe sometimes the discussions can be harsh and from some point of views not very polite.
Did someone get censored, when he discuss about technical aspects like bugs reporting, feature requests, etc.?
That’s how the thread started out - mainly discussing the view that the implementation of Sailfish on the Xperia 10 II had a lot of bugs and general stability problems, and this is where the suppression of posts started. Whilst this technical discussion was essentially about various user’s experience of bugs, etc with the implementation of SFOS on the 10 II and therefore factual, it did become a little heated on occasions. As I said in my original post, language was used that I would not use myself - but I am also cognisant that different standards apply in different countries/cultures and we all need to be flexible in this respect. The discussion, not surprisingly, then took a sidebar into the topic of post suppression - lightly at first, but then with more users contributing as more and more posts in the thread were suppressed.
@ddobrev raised this issue in the Community Meeting today. This is the transcript of what was discussed and Jolla’s reply for any that are interested:
(Stop) censorship in the forum (15 min – asked by ddobrev) (sledges, 07:50:09)
- Just the other day I saw @deloptes’s and others’ opinions censored for no reason at Total Buggy OS - Xperia 10 Plus (sledges, 07:50:16)
- Total Buggy OS - Xperia 10 Plus (sledges, 07:50:23)
- This is the first time I’ve seen any censorship here, and I’d like to discuss what we all can do to make it the last one as well. (sledges, 07:50:27)
- Nobody’s opinions are censored. Flagging posts is a good thing and helps us moderate the forum. Moderators will try to review the flagged comments quickly, but please be patient e.g. during weekends or holidays. (sledges, 07:50:39)
- Opinions are encouraged, rude language and name calling is not. See forum guidelines (sledges, 07:50:48)
- FAQ - Sailfish OS Forum (sledges, 07:50:52)
- ^ how to maintain polite and productive discussion. (sledges, 07:51:00)
- https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/forum-censorship-some-proposals/ (sledges, 07:56:06)
Point (4) is interesting since we are nearly four weeks on and the flagging/hidden posts still remain in the thread - So either nothing has yet been done (I’ve heard nothing with regard to my multiple hidden posts) or Jolla must have agreed that all these posts should remain suppressed. Unless there is another explanation?