Community meeting on IRC 9th December 2021

Announcements
#1

Schedule: Thursday 2021-12-09T08:00:00Z (Check here for UTC or to download calendar reminder)

Topic proposals for the meeting:

  • add your name/nick using the template below to suggest a topic.
  • indicate how much time you will need for the topic so we can time-box the meeting accordingly
  • please be as thorough as you can with your question/topic
  • if you can’t make the meeting please ask and then name a substitute who can in your place.

It is expected that you show up and present your topic, or name a substitute and make sure they attend in your absence. These IRC meetings are for real time participation and live discussions, otherwise you can post the topic on here and get responses that way.

We need you to be present to clarify details in the topic, and to ensure the discussion is leading to the answers you are looking for! If you do not participate or your question/topic isn’t clear enough it will be postponed. Also: Always ask for more time than you anticipate your topics needs!

Please try and have your topics ready at least 3 days before the meeting. This will help us have answers ready beforehand to save time. Topics announced afterwards will be postponed to the next meeting.

Template for topic proposal: (post your topic proposals as comments to this forum topic)

  • Name / IRC nick:
  • topic:
  • some details about the topic:
  • approx. time needed:
  • optional: name of substitute if you cannot make it to the upcoming meeting (and inform your substitute)
Sailfish Community News, 2nd December, Developer Docs, WebAuth
#2
  • Name / IRC nick: ddobrev
  • topic: Pure Maps - just one major feature remaining
  • some details about the topic: Selection of routes is, in my opinion, the only remaining feature a fully functional mapping application needs that Pure Maps does not yet have. Let’s discuss how Jolla can help turn it into its official built-in mapping application with @rinigus 's blessing.
  • approx. time needed: 15 minutes.
#3
  • Name / IRC nick: ddobrev
  • topic: Bluetooth support in Android
  • some details about the topic: It’s been a few months since I last brought it up – let’s see what the progress is.
  • approx. time needed: 5 minutes.
#4
  • Name / IRC nick: ddobrev
  • topic: Old Qt in the SDK
  • some details about the topic: Again an old (pun intended) topic but there are few new problems, rather the old ones stay unresolved. Qt 5.6 is unacceptably old for decent application development which dooms the Sailfish SDK to a slow death.
  • approx. time needed: 10 minutes.
7 Likes
#5
  • Name: keeperofthekeys
  • Topic: Status of VoLTE
  • Details: I just received a sunset message from my provider that all 2G and 3G networks in my country will be closed down (as per a govt decision) in the not too distant future and that I will need a phone supporting VoLTE to be able to continue making calls. So what is the status of this feature that has been “coming soon” almost since the JP1? For me this now changed from “nice to have” to “mandatory”.
  • Time needed: 5 min
  • Substitute: everything is in the description, please discuss/reply regardless of my being able to make it.
2 Likes
#6

Also, a clarification on which hardware VoLTE will come to. It seems like from other posts/announcements it may be only the Xperia 10iii onwards, or perhaps possibly the 10ii. A lot of us are on XA2 or earlier and planned to stay there (10ii and iii too big a form factor for me) …

7 Likes
#7

Hi @ddobrev , I would like to comment your question about Pure maps,

as it is second time you are rising this question (previously at September meeting). And as writing my attitude needs longer time that 15 minutes during live meeting, I would like to write it asynchronously here.

First, I feel that Jolla has really small team (50 employees by Wikipedia, 61 by LinkedIn) and they have many other projects that are working on (VoLTE, Sailjail, Browser, PIM, new hardware support, Android App support, updating all libraries…), I don’t see realistic that they will start yet another initiative. Their reply from August:

<Jolla> We should definitely do more in the location area (mapping,
positioning, etc.), but maybe not for individual apps but in terms
of the overall developer offering (as @rinigus said Pure Maps is not
the only Maps client developed for Sailfish OS). (sledges,
07:32:14)

But lets wait for current reply from Jolla.

It is necessary to realize that developing of mapping / navigation application is huge task. When Pure maps seems to be almost feature complete, it is still client at the end. Another part of the stack lives on the servers of third parties, like MapTiler, OpenStreetMap, Here, MapQuest… Pure Map is able to use these services for free, because generated load is small (@rinigus may clarify that). But it would change, I believe, when it would be included in Sailfish OS by default. And who will cover service bills?

Only sustainable model that scales, is to use own cloud infrastructure for services (how to pay for it?), or do all hard work on mobile devices. Something that OSM Scout server does. And here is question what stack to use, if Sailfish should provide rendering/routing/geocoding (…) on device? Hard to decide. I’m a bit biased in this discussion, as I’m author of OSM Scout :slight_smile:

So, from my point of view, Jolla should focus on existing projects, updating existing stack… When Jolla would have some free resources for new initiative, Instead of helping to specific application, I would suggest to make something that will improve situation for multiple apps:

  • bring Qt Location api. It would allow easy integration of map features to another apps. I would love it. But we will need to solve service / stack questions in such case…
  • allow daemons in Harbour, like OSM Scout server
  • bring text-to-speech API. Multiple applications may benefit from it. But it is hard topic too.
  • expose storage api to applications (usage of system DropBox, NextCloud, OneDrive accounts by applications)

@ddobrev do you have some specific help in mind? @rinigus is there something that is missing in SFOS for better Pure Maps functionality?

Sorry for so long post :slight_smile:

9 Likes
#8

I don’t see what has changed that significantly since September to warrant the same topic once again. Especially, when all involved parties either via OS (Jolla) or through working on map apps (me and @karry), don’t see a point in it. Pure Maps, OSM Scout, OSM Scout Server are all open source projects. Feel free to contribute as much as you can via something that is your own - via your involvement.

As for what we expect from Jolla, I fully agree with @karry. There are way more important issues to resolve and mapping stack is in a healthy position on SFOS, I think.

@karry - regarding generated load. Yes, it is smaller that we would had if app would be on Android. Pure Maps had two sets of API keys I know about: mine for SFOS and Flatpak and one from Jonatan who packages for Ubuntu Touch. For Mapbox, UT folks managed to get over Mapbox free tier limit recently. I was getting closer to the limit of Mapbox. As Mapbox will just start charging you when you get over the limit, I opted out from providing default Mapbox key and users have to get their own. For HERE, raster tiles were not able to generate enough load as they have some caching. However, geocoder and routing, as soon as included, brought visible load by just me testing it. So, I am sure it would go overboard with the latest Pure Maps release. As HERE has a policy similar to Mapbox, I went for the same solution - don’t provide any default keys.

New default has switched for MapTiler tiles and, as they have smaller free tier, I expect that it will be loaded by the half of the month. However, as they just stop providing tiles without any charge (based on their conditions, will test it soon), users will probably migrate when they see that the tiles don’t get loaded.

In principle, we miss a way to pay for these services which is probably the main issue. And it is a service in the end, someone needs to pay for servers and network and the the work done on them. I may get in touch with some of these companies to ask if they want to start charging end users. Maybe there is a solution to this issue that way. In principle, same goes for offline maps imports and distribution. It is just way cheaper, it seems.

6 Likes
#9

There was a statement from Jolla that VoLTE will first come to the Xperia 10 ii, IIRC

#10

I thought it was either the ii or iii. The question is then where? Only forwards for 64 bit SFOS implementations on iii, iv, etc (or whatever the Xperia line of phones turns into), or backwards on existing 32 bit implementations like the XA2, etc.

3 Likes
#11

Of course, this is still the question.
What I have in mind is a stement like “VoLTE will first come to the Xperia 10 ii”. For some reason I am expecting VoLTE support for the 10 ii to come with the next or the second next release.
I also expect that support for the 10 iii will come soon because the 10 iii with SFOS felt stable and mature at Jolla’s birthday celebration in Berlin.
These are 64 bit devices and I have no clue how much extra effort is involved in bringing VoLTE to existing 32 bit devices. If Jolla had the capacities it would be wise to support at least XA2 and Xperis 10 (i) as well to avoid disappoinment of those who are otherwise still happy with these phones.

#12

Indeed it would be wise, from the environmental sustainability point of view, not to force potentially thousands of users to abandon their existing phones (many models of which I understand are hardware VoLTE capable) for new ones if they want to remain with Sailfish, as I do. And that is aside from the cost to users of buying new phones.

#13

We’re kinda hijacking the topic here, but yes I agree: tossing a perfectly adequate XA2 to be able to use VoLTE, because it now has 32-bit SFOS which has no upgrade path to 64-bit because “too difficult” rubs me the wrong way as well. If reflashing the device is what it takes to get up-to-date 64-bit and VoLTE, then that’s perfectly fine by me - heck I’d even pay for the privilege. Even if one were to buy a new device, that has the be flashed as well.

4 Likes
#14

@Keeper-of-the-Keys there was an interest by @jpetrell to know which region and network provider is shutting down GSM phone calls in your case, if we may ask?

#15

Minutes: #sailfishos-meeting: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th December 2021
Minutes (text): https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2021/sailfishos-meeting.2021-12-09-07.59.txt
Log: #sailfishos-meeting log

1 Like
#16