I also have the strong impression that security often is fielded by big tech to fend off privacy demands, in particular when there is no real threat
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So it’s like “Browser Trusted” HTTPS.
Sounds like a good thing, right? Except “Browser Trusted” means $$$ and corporate control. Sure, we have Letsencrypt; yes, they give that away for free, but it’s still based on the same commercial model.
Of course encryption is a good thing and I don’t mean to suggest we should drop that!
But, one is the internet, the other is your personal property. And the people pushing for that don’t want to make home/mobile computing safer (we already do that thankyouverymuch), they want to have control over what you can run on your phones. Baked right into the hardware, I’m guessing.
It’s like saying “put on safety belts even while walking, even in your home” - oh and they must be from one of 3 brands.
WRT banking apps (always seems to come up) -
- try if the web UI doesn’t work for you. That’s why we have these large, bloated, but perfectly cross-platform browsers. And yes, that’s a sore topic on SFOS, you might have to install one via appsupport.
- if they insist on pushing usually tracker-ridden apps on you, why not change banks? I did this recently and while it wasn’t pleasant, it wasn’t hard either and did not cost me anything.
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This has nothing to do with “Browser Trust”.
I think its just lazy to whine “use the browser for banking”, that just wont work in most of the EU.
Let me ask you: Do you want a secure phone? Or what?
For myself, I don’t want hackers for all kumbaya phone, I want something that can be used and trusted in the real life.
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To being complete honest here, Jolla has proprietary components in the SailfishOS…. You sounds someone who want to be in full control and I have heard that maybe PMOS could be for you? What Jolla has messaged, they try to provide true alternative to duopoly and that includes a little bit wider audience
Secure from WHO! I certainly want one secure from GlobalPlatform API
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Please guys. Be civil and respectful. This is a discussion so there is absolutely zero need for personal name calling or even verbal attacks.
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As many Sailors may know, important purposes of IT security technology lie in the protection from threats and in the provision of trust.
A TEE is a Technology that is standardized in Specifications that are publicly available. A TEE protects from threats, that’s why it is required by some apps, i.e. apps for authentication, banking, 2FA, security token, government ID.
A TEE provides trust, usually initially set by a manufacturer. This manufacturer has to inject root keys in the production process of the device. So why not let Jolla provide the trust for an open source Linux TEE on a SFOS platform, i.e. the J2?
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AFAIU* the bank would then have to explicitely trust Jollyboys, which, analogous to the SSL certificates I brought up earlier, is a question of giving money to some “trusted” 3rd party provider.
Without that it’s just protected OS memory, which I believe Linux already has.
Look at cacert.org for an example of how it could look without giving $$$ to some big “trusted” provider. Never heard of them? Exactly.
Yes, I am mistrustful of such approaches, and for good reason & experience over the years. Look what Google/Android/Alphabet alone did with “safe, trusted and secure”. The technology behind it might be sound (or not); the problem is with who pushes it, and to what end.
Dismissing my opinion with “hackers for all kumbaya phone” is, IMO, just as insulting as any direct insult.
* I could be wrong; better explanations are welcome.
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No, this is a wrong assumption:
As @henris42 already explained before, a TEE has nothing to do with PKI certificates in trust stores, e.g. those here:
It’s not a question of ‘letting’ anyone do anything. To incorporate a TEE, and OP-TEE is arm only, requires a hardware design decision. And, generally, you won’t make that, the SOC manufacturer will make that decision for you because they have gone some distance to ensure you get performance. I don’t konw what that will cost, but the decision THEN ripples through the whole ecosystem and will increase costs and introduce obstacles.
Having looked a number of specs now, I’m not convinced. It’s another moat. In Germany that kind of approach has led to manufacturers gouging the state (via Doctors offices) by baking certs into the system and claiming, oh, need to upgrade the hardware. As soon as you introduce this kind of mechanism, in the interests of ‘security’, the grifters will come calling.
I really don’t understand why I can do banking with nothing more than SLL and a second factor (I have dedicated devices for that) just fine but NOT on a phone. That’s irrational.
I use the German tax authorities system, Elster. They provide keys to end users as a second facor. They rotate those at intervals. Those are clearly tied to the original publisher, controlled by them and of utility for me and my security. That works. I can even remove them from a system or add them to a system. Do you see that as making the world less secure?
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What are you talking about. Please provide a specific example of a token exchange. This sounds like hot air.
It is ALWAYS the risk of the user. If a co-processor, like a TEE lives on my phone AND someone gets hold of other credentials and phone, I’m cooked. So much for security. People lose phones all the time.
The ‘hardware secure element’ is only as secure as the vendor who can access is. As we have seen all to often, the major vendors get ‘cracked’ all the time.
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