Questions about Jolla C2 and SailfishOS

[attah]

@Desmond

Let’s say I need some highly specialized software that takes photographs. But this software, in addition to access to the camera, for some reason asks for access to the Internet, requests access to contacts and phone numbers, and geolocation. Then I am surprised to find out that the geolocation is included in the photo, and my entire phone book is stored in the metadata.

And 3 other things you didn’t think of, or with underdeveloped permission handling, plus their own secret-sauce fingerprinting. By using such an app you already lost. Demanding band-aid levels of compensating for it is not productive. Geolocation alone would have been reasonable as a feature (and of course comes with an off-switch since forever).

@Desmond

OS declaring itself confidential

Again, you are misusing this word to mean something you made up. Define it or use something established. Jolla never used this term.

@Desmond

I don’t want to get to the point of discussing which mask is best to wear so that the street camera doesn’t recognize me by my face. That’s not what this topic is about.

No, it is you being upset that Jolla isn’t handing out masks that keeps the conversation going in that direction. I.e. completely missing the point that needing them in the fist place is nucking futs - and gate analysis is a thing.

You are demanding to be facilitated in walking down that one camera-laden shithole with clown-shoes and a ski mask. We are building nice things elsewhere instead.

[Desmond]

After analyzing the responses, I came to the conclusion that the SFOS does not have any tools to ensure privacy at all. All solutions come down to external ones: a separate phone for each application, change jobs, change banks.

I also come to the conclusion that Android, despite the fact that it is made by a corporation that makes money by selling personal data, is currently a much safer system because it can do everything within a single device. Even separate containers that completely isolate applications from each other. I am not even talking about monitoring traffic and application access rights, this is self-evident.

Well, that’s what I wanted to know. Thank you all for your answers! The topic can be closed.

[WHCharge]

I suppose you need an Android emulator (or fork) full of gimmicks to control application behaviors and provide misleading information to daily use apps you can’t avoid, not an OS different from Android. Flyme claimed to have some privacy features such as giving fake locations and empty contacts, but I doubt the system itself collects more data than Google. Maybe going for a trusted software company for security solutions helps you more.

[attah]

When your bank and workplace finally implement rectal identity checking, remember this day - when you gave up on being part of an alternative.

Or maybe you will just demand someone make better rubber asses…

[Desmond]

I just wanted to understand how SFOS compares to other OS, how to hide from big brother is a question for another topic.

[Desmond]

You apply everything to me, and I just give you examples from the real world (and there are many, many more). It seems that SFOS is so lacking in any functionality that it shapes the thinking of its users, and they, the users, have never had the need to launch anything other than a calculator. Therefore, they are surprised that such a topic was created by someone - who would need such things? Right? Banking applications? Social networks? For them, there is a PC, and a phone is only for making calls.

Therefore, I do not want to develop the topic further.

[archon]

You are right, most people here understood that you cannot demand privacy when using services that requires you to deny your privacy when accepiing EULA. Sailfish delivers the alternative for such people. It is an OS that not only you are allowed to use, but you truly own. This is more or less a definition of privacy for most here, it seems like yours vary.

[Desmond]

I know what it’s like to own a system. I’m a long-time Linux user. But Linux has so much open source software that proprietary alternatives are not needed. And when people here say that SFOS doesn’t need privacy by definition, I understand that they only use the built-in Calculator and Notes. I just realized it now. That’s why we couldn’t understand each other for a long time.

It would be ideal if all companies released open source applications, but now we can only dream about it. Therefore, in my opinion, SFOS’s destiny is either to remain a niche product with Calculator and Notes. Or, by some miracle, to get an expansion of its ecosystem, which is 99% likely to be more proprietary. Only the OS itself will be critically behind in terms of security with this proprietary software.

As you understand, the thesis that SFOS provides security at the proper level is very short-sighted. Maybe now everyone is happy with everything, well, so what. But being a long-time Android user, I have seen the whole history of its development and all the mistakes that the developers made and solved; I see that the SFOS developers are somewhere at the 2010 level in Android and they still have many amazing discoveries ahead. As do the SFOS users.

[sebix]

@Desmond

You apply everything to me, and I just give you examples from the real world (and there are many, many more). It seems that SFOS is so lacking in any functionality that it shapes the thinking of its users, and they, the users, have never had the need to launch anything other than a calculator. Therefore, they are surprised that such a topic was created by someone - who would need such things? Right? Banking applications? Social networks? For them, there is a PC, and a phone is only for making calls.

Please do not generalize from one group to everyone.

There are a lot of things that need to be improved in SFOS. Most things you mention just don’t have a very high priority compared to other issues.

[Desmond]

Well, excuse me, my interlocutors could have answered me like that right away, instead of saying that the SFOS does not need privacy by definition.

[miau]

Excuse me, you could have started the thread that you are not interested in privacy, but only in using the apps from big companies you like to use and use snake oil to give you the feeling that you have privacy. If you want to use the products from big tech firms like Google or Meta, just use them, but don’t start an argument about privacy.

If you are only interested to use your favourite android apps in a ‘secure’ way, SailfishOs is not the right OS for you. Period.

I have to go back and make some calculations and take some notes about it.

[attah]

@Desmond

As you understand, the thesis that SFOS provides security at the proper level is very short-sighted.

Please explain your reasoning and don’t just make opinion statements.

Inventing coping mechanisms while more spying is rolled out every year just makes people think they are “safe” and postpone taking any meaningful action.
No doubt you have heard about the expression “boiling the frog”. You are a frog in search of little ice cubes to hug.

[Desmond]

I’m tired of repeating that I’m interested in what privacy functions the system has. I’ll figure out the applications and their set myself based on the set of these functions. You could answer:

• There is function A.
• There is function B.
• There is no function C.

But you answer:

• Privacy is an illusion. Reality is an illusion. The world belongs to corporations. Life is a brief moment between the past and the future. Being determines consciousness. And so on.

In general, this is really an empty talk, sorry guys, I have nothing more to tell you on this topic.

[olf]

@Desmond

It seems that SFOS is so lacking in any functionality that it shapes the thinking of its users,

That is correct: I see how your thinking has been shaped by Android’s application access rights management system, that you now believe that such a rights system is fundamental for protecting your privacy. Thank you for helping me to comprehend what a smart move Google made by implementing this system.

@Desmond

and they, the users, have never had the need to launch anything other than a calculator.

It is interesting to see you jumping at conclusions again and again. I have about 200 apps installed, about 50 of them being Android apps, and use about 30 apps very often. Though the crucial point is: All of them are Open Source Software which I trust.

@Desmond

I know what it’s like to own a system. I’m a long-time Linux user. But Linux has so much open source software that proprietary alternatives are not needed.

Exactly. SailfishOS is a Linux distribution, like any desktop Linux distribution. There is “so much open source software that proprietary alternatives are not needed”, too. But you insist on using proprietary, spying software. Why don’t you do that for your desktop Linux installation?

And please tell me which application access rights management system you are using on your desktop Linux installation? I assume the answer is none, because you do not see any need for that, as you use only Open Source Software.

Why is it so hard for you to transfer this consideration to a mobile Linux distribution called SailfishOS?

P.S.: Ultimately this appears to be another case of an X Y problem.

[throwaway69]

It’s kinda sad how people coming from android (and its clones calling themselves OSes) just assume OS spying on you is the norm, not having to opt-out of a dozen spying mechanisms seems fishy, such a radical concept. The only privacy toggle you need here is turning android support off, as who knows how many spying frameworks you installed there yourself (hell you can install full opengapps to feel completely at home with daddy googol). The example of FB/Insta is curious, do you really believe Meta will not connect the dots your two accounts under two different device IDs are you? When they always connect from same IP? Very wishful thinking

[snowsplitter]

@Desmond

In general, this is really an empty talk, sorry guys, I have nothing more to tell you on this topic

Hi,
first time here and starting to look other option for mobile os. I had similar questions and reading this conversation helped alot. Also thanks to others for participating

Just reminder as i got this hint while posting this:

Welcome to Sailfish OS Forum — thanks for contributing!

Be kind to your fellow community members.

Does your reply improve the conversation?

Constructive criticism is welcome, but criticize ideas, not people.

[pawel.spoon]

accept you answer as an answer and the topic will be closed

while i think that you are correct that jolla does not do anything special to make the os safe, i find you conclusion funny.

bye

[JoOppen]

Just a short observation:

Using native SFOS Apps that appear trustworthy is my approach to limit my data exposure. I trust (and thanks to full root access even can see) that Jolla does not collect data and did not implement those agents that collect data in the OS (other than Google with GMS / play services that have the purpose of aggregating data).

For me, that makes a fundamental difference. Thanks to everyone creating native SFOS apps!

[nthn]

@Desmond

Display some indicator on the screen if the camera is activated.

This would be the same as on all laptops that turn on a (rather irritating) light when the camera (or microphone) is switched on, except the light is connected to a different circuit than the camera, so any hacker can just turn on the camera without turning on the light, and you’ll never know you’re being watched. You can’t fix a hardware problem with software. Either way, phone cameras are a privacy red herring. No one’s interested in intricately exploring the insides of your pockets, and if they can access the camera, your device is already completely compromised anyway and you have more things to worry about than some state or non-state hacker taking creepshots of you checking the weather.

[Seven.of.nine]

I like solutions like hardware switches that can interrupt power supply to the camera module or disconnect external USB camera. But into smartphones you can’t add any hardware switch nor tinker anything. It’s tragedy, have to carry a spybug in the handbag.