That’s how the thread started out - mainly discussing the view that the implementation of Sailfish on the Xperia 10 II had a lot of bugs and general stability problems, and this is where the suppression of posts started. Whilst this technical discussion was essentially about various user’s experience of bugs, etc with the implementation of SFOS on the 10 II and therefore factual, it did become a little heated on occasions. As I said in my original post, language was used that I would not use myself - but I am also cognisant that different standards apply in different countries/cultures and we all need to be flexible in this respect. The discussion, not surprisingly, then took a sidebar into the topic of post suppression - lightly at first, but then with more users contributing as more and more posts in the thread were suppressed.
@ddobrev raised this issue in the Community Meeting today. This is the transcript of what was discussed and Jolla’s reply for any that are interested:
(Stop) censorship in the forum (15 min – asked by ddobrev) (sledges, 07:50:09)
- Just the other day I saw @deloptes’s and others’ opinions censored for no reason at Total Buggy OS - Xperia 10 Plus (sledges, 07:50:16)
- Total Buggy OS - Xperia 10 Plus (sledges, 07:50:23)
- This is the first time I’ve seen any censorship here, and I’d like to discuss what we all can do to make it the last one as well. (sledges, 07:50:27)
- Nobody’s opinions are censored. Flagging posts is a good thing and helps us moderate the forum. Moderators will try to review the flagged comments quickly, but please be patient e.g. during weekends or holidays. (sledges, 07:50:39)
- Opinions are encouraged, rude language and name calling is not. See forum guidelines (sledges, 07:50:48)
- FAQ - Sailfish OS Forum (sledges, 07:50:52)
- ^ how to maintain polite and productive discussion. (sledges, 07:51:00)
- https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/forum-censorship-some-proposals/ (sledges, 07:56:06)
Point (4) is interesting since we are nearly four weeks on and the flagging/hidden posts still remain in the thread - So either nothing has yet been done (I’ve heard nothing with regard to my multiple hidden posts) or Jolla must have agreed that all these posts should remain suppressed. Unless there is another explanation?
- I believe that there is a distinct difference of opinion regarding flagging viewed as a ‘warning’ to readers about content and on the other hand content as being undesirable, worthy of censure. I see it as the former and can also understand why some, some have referred to growing up in communist countries, would see it as censure. Since there were also some arbitrary, having a laugh, flags in there, the original ‘keyword’ based flags and the usual human intervention/flagging is perceived as correct, from the Jolla vantage point.
- Rude language. That is a very broad category of speech. Given our proclivities here, it’s miracle that more stuff isn’t flagged. On the other hand, I think we’re fairly well behaved. But I self-censor
Indeed there is a difference of opinion, but that’s OK isn’t it? Not everybody is going to have the same point of view.
However, even if we go with flagging being a ‘warning’, what good is this if the poster has been given no feedback or explanation as to why such a warning has been given, and no advice on how to re-present his or her view to remove the said warning? That’s just punishment without the possibility of rehabilitation!
Yes, the usual one with Jolla, which results in a+b:
It is all just nice “US-american style” phrases: “Your opinion is valuable”, “The process helps us very much”, “This is of great importance for us” etc. etc.
Usually these meaningless phrases are used to hide do something “bad” (i.e., most often, “not in the interest of the one receiving these phrases”), but for Jolla they are most often used to hide … doing nothing.
Perceive this as another reminder that we are insignificant for Jolla and the whole purpose of this forum is to …
a. gather some bug-reports, a few of which are then cherry-picked and the others discarded internally.
b. minimalise support efforts, because most support requests are handled and answered by other users.
c. provide some webpages with guidance etc. (i.e., beyond Jolla’s few own pages) for users (i.e., non-developers) with zero effort by Jolla.
So this forum was instanciated to be a catalyst for users helping users and to channel bug-reports, while keeping Jolla’s efforts as low as possible.
What you / we are asking for is absolutely detrimental to these aims and hence will likely be ignored as much / long as possible.
This is why I still ponder about your second post (“Some proposals”), because these proposals fail to take this into account, hence are doomed to be ignored as well. Suitable proposals are only ones which create the effects we desire (less muting / suppression of posts) and do not raise the efforts for Jolla at all (i.e., the practical efforts have to stay at zero).
I think this is rather too cynical a view. There is no question that Jolla is not exactly keeping up to the challenges, but I see only signs for the better in the past 9 months or so. The efforts to get the obs build server up-to-date, the efforts to get modern application sandboxing and a proper browser. I personally wouldn’t push so hard if it wasn’t that the signs were in the direction of improvement.
EDIT: see also https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-share-api-and-sailfish-webview
As far as revisit the flagged content, I don’t know. Since vige was ignored after making an explicit request to ALL to move the flagging discussion into another thread, I see it as justified that nothing happens here. One person sees:
Personally I cannot see a problem here and this looks like an over-reaction.
another sees
Old sour grapes.
And the ‘Solution’ which there is, apparently there is one, is drowned out by us bickering. I’ve said more than enough already.
I think this is rather too cynical a view.
If you meant to respond to my last post, I can assure you that my intention was not to be cynical, not even sarcastic or ironic, but to depict realistic expectations based on 7 years experience with Jolla’s behaviour towards “the community” (as they always phrase it).
What Jolla has slightly improved upon lately, is to be more talkative about some of their technical efforts, but I would not really call that “communication”, because it is primarily unidirectional.
This is “technical marketing”, and while it is good that Jolla improves that, it does not address the structural issues their “community” interactions always have been having and how to properly model what “community” is comprised of, can be utilised for etc.
But your last statements really startled me: “It is ‘our’ fault that Jolla does not react to any of both postings WRT ‘censorship’ by @Steve_Everett, because ‘we’ have not reacted in an consistent manner and also not ‘within time’”?
To me that appears to be a vastly unfounded, general excuse for Jolla staying mum (about almost every issue, technical or not).
P.S.: Oh, although I hit Reply to your last comment for creating this one, yours is still displayed as having zero replies.
This seems to be another forum bug. I will try to scrutinise it a bit more and ultimately might report it.
As I said (EDIT) above, we disregarded a direct call to not derail that thread and take this discussion, for instance, here. This made our behavior disrespectful which caused subsequent posts to be flagged by someone.
Whether or not I would react this way is irrelevant. Neither is Jolla the arbiter here since people like you and I, olf, have the ability to flag. Who was responsible is a guessing game that I refuse to play because it ends up in a blame game that I believe is not productive. @Steve_Everett’s points are all worth considering, but also tend to ignore the disrespect we showed in the first place. And that is the crux.
I will always be at odds with someone. Some of those someone’s have ‘very’ thin skin and can’t tolerate the least deviation from some imaginary norm. I accept that I moderate my behaviour because this is a public, shared forum and not my living room or my favourite pub/squat. And so, yes, I accept self censorship as a necessary evil of living with people of radically different persuasions.
Not sure that I quite agree here.
On one hand, If I make a reasonable request on this forum (and I have done many!) - for example for people to respect each others’ views and avoid personal insults, then almost without exception my request is completely ignored. Nobody flags any posts that don’t comply with my request, and nobody worries too much about showing disrespect to me.
However, on the other hand, if Vige (who I understand is a Jolla employee) makes a reasonable request then your argument is that we should all follow this without question and without challenge - and if we do not we are showing disrespect to him, and we should worry about that.
The obvious conclusion here is that Vige’s requests, as a Jolla employee, carry far more weight and authority on this forum than those of a non-Jolla employee. Therefore you are arguing that Jolla is not the arbiter on this forum, whilst at the same time arguing that they quite clearly are or should be.
Where I do agree is that there is nothing productive to be gained by guessing who the flagger(s) was/were. He, she or they will know who they are and might, having read all of this, choose to act differently in similar situations in the future. In my book that will be progress.
It is not a question of agreeing or not. We do not know who flagged what. What we do no, and ignored was a clear public request from @vige. I don’t understand how you can blithely ignore this while insisting on your right to be heard. Don’t get it.
And, no, I’m not suggesting @vige should get preferential treatment for any reason whatsoever. But he should be respected as a person and in his capacity as a moderator trying to keep a thread on track which, incidently, would have continued to be critical of his employer one way or the other. And @vige has a responsibility which neither you nor I have. And that stress deserves a bit of regard. Even if he was a volunteer like you or I. If, and only if, we had at LEAST, considered his request, moved the discussion as he asked and shown him a modicum of respect, not to mention the original poster who ALSO mentioned we should get back on track, then can we consider the further discussion as productive.
When will someone finally acknowledge responsibility and stop trying to pass the buck?
EDIT. And steve, for all that I value your contributions, which I do, that last paragraph is a veiled threat for someone that has ‘thin skin’. I’m the kind of person that picks fights with bikers, so, I don’t take it that way. But someone probably will.
EDIT 2. I’m struggling to keep up with my other commitments where this project of ours is concerned, so I’m muting this thread. I don’t have time for this. Sorry.
Well @wladi_1981, your “facts” are not my facts:
The fact that all SailfishOS releases since 3.2.1 / 3.3.0 contain bugs, which prevent their usage as a “daily driver” for me and many others, makes “Totally buggy OS” a true statement for those affected.
I.e., “Totally buggy OS” expresses very well this non-usability of all recent SailfishOS releases.
Baseline is: Aside from the laws of physics, every perception is subjective.
Thus your statement “This isn’t true” is untrue for many!
Furthermore:
- Do you seriously want “emotional expression” to be suppressed?
- Why should you or anybody else assume a position to decide what is “emotional expression” and what is not?
Hence the conclusion is the same for me, again:
Every statement which stays clear of ad hominem attacks must be O.K.
I didn’t ignore anything. It was me who actually created this separate thread that you are now reading as a result of this request. Yes, I didn’t do it immediately the moment the request was made - I have a life outside this forum and have to choose what I do when based on all sorts of priorities that people here will have no knowledge of. Your criticism that I didn’t jump to attention immediately when asked to do so is therefore uncalled for.
Of course I expect all contributors to be treated with respect - and believe it or not I feel that should include even myself.
Ok, now that is going too far (weren’t we talking about respect a minute ago?). I merely expressed a hope that in similar situations in the future a different course of action may be chosen.
I have to confess that I am beginning to feel that my time contributing to this forum is coming to an end.
When you feel that the audience no longer likes what you are doing, its probably time to leave the stage.
@poetaster, I fail to follow your line of arguments and line of thinking.
Starting with @Steve_Everett’s last paragraph, to which I wholeheartedly agree:
Where I do agree is that there is nothing productive to be gained by guessing who the flagger(s) was/were. He, she or they will know who they are and might, having read all of this, choose to act differently in similar situations in the future. In my book that will be progress.
How can that be “[…] a veiled threat for someone that has ‘thin skin’. […] I don’t take it that way. But someone probably will.”?
To me this is a logically incomprehensible and distinctively vague (“probably someone”) statement, probably just to express some counter-“argument” for the (thin) argument’s sake.
Unfortunately, I also cannot concur with any other statement in this last post of yours (which is sad, because conversations with you seemed to be based on some mutual understanding in the past):
- You do propose to treat “moderators” differently, although they are not marked as such, hence are not recognisable in this capacity.
Additionally it is unclear which duties, responsibility and measures a “moderator” has. - You do propose to treat “sailors” (i.e., Jolla employees) differently, although they are not marked as such, hence are not recognisable in this capacity.
In addition to aforementioned points, which cannot be taken into account by forum users, because they are opaque, I fail to believe that you seriously consider that thread to be “critical of his employer” (i.e., Jolla).
And in my understanding this post and the very existence of this thread shows that Steve and I well understood and positively reacted to Viges’ request. But as usual, there are always some people counteracting to get a derailed thread back on track (e.g., you), because it takes some time for that message to “sink in” (i.e., be properly honoured by a critical mass; “by all” has been proven to be unreachable) to move to a different thread (i.e., this one here).
Hence from my point of view more than a “modicum of respect” was ultimately shown.
But your central statement simply leaves me puzzled:
When will someone finally acknowledge responsibility and stop trying to pass the buck?
- Who “tries to pass the buck” to whom in your opinion?
- Which responsibility taken by whom shall be acknowledged by whom?
What and who do you intend to address with that?
I hoped (originally even “expected”) Jolla to take this derailed thread (which is not at all a catastrophe, but rather a minor accident, which happens) as a trigger to analyse how their rules and configuration of this forum software fostered the derailing.
To me it became obvious by that incident and all the discussion which followed:
- Encouraging users to flag posts quickly is a speedy path to escalation.
This guidance should be strongly toned down. - Only ad hominem attacks should be off limits, because everything else is subjective and debatable, for example terms like “foul language”, “derogative statements” etc.
Without such a clearly cut and simple rule, which is easy to comprehend and (most importantly) to apply, the rule itself is problematic, because it can be abused as it leaves a lot of room for interpretation and will always be non-congruent with someone’s perception. - The configuration of this forum software with “the first flagging suppresses a post, the second flagging fully censors it” while retaining full anonymity for the censor, constitutes an invitation to play malicious “power games” for some and thus is by itself “evil”.
And I seriously wonder why you fiercely defend Jolla’s silence on this topic (e.g., in this thread, which @vige explicitly requested) and lack of adaption of their guidance, rules or the configuration of this forum software as something positive, only to conclude with “so I’m muting this thread. I don’t have time for this. Sorry.”!?!
Excuse me, that I feel strongly encouraged to reply, that this is not nice behaviour at all in my perspective.
@olf I totally agree with you. English is not my native language and I do not have the time to express my thoughts in similar way.
My concern is that this little and insignificant forum is mirroring where our civilization is going and I feel sad. I feel sad, because people do not know what is to be in totalitarian state. They do not understand logic and Enlightment and sadly are taking positions of power, so that they can rule over us.
For me from social point of view this is unacceptable and even less from logical point of view. I.e to demand respect and to not give such is … well, according my observation the new normal on the liberal side.
My demand is still - please do not release buggy software. Just stop doing this!
And I have the right to be pi**ed off when this is happening over and over.
Then when this frustration comes out, the moralists come to teach me how to behave … I am speechless. Honestly I can imagine how Giordano Bruno felt when he was burned alive.
The worst I fear is that the moralists will not sit down and think if they may be wrong and learn something, which by definition is lack of intelligence. Please prove me, I am wrong!
Thank you!
Nobody is being burned alive
This is being made bigger then it is.
I also don’t think any real opinion is being silenced. If worded somewhat reasonably it doesn’t get flagged. If there is anything reasonably worded criticism being flagged, can you point me to anything? And no, not that infamous thread that was derailed into lots of drama
As for all the venting of frustrations, did it do anything good, except causing a lot of drama that seems to be going on endlessly here?
@marcelpol
Bruno and many others were burned alive for speaking the truth. And no - it is not being made bigger than it is. I do not see why I should buy a second device to do testing before I update my daily driver.
The truth is that the OS is buggy and I once again ask Jolla to stop releasing buggy versions.
ATM on the 10 II the network is not working properly when some Android apps are running. I mean the network connection suddenly disappears. I will confirm this with other router. But forget this, did I mention bluetooth?
I do not know what else you want to hear.
I fully understand the complexity of use cases behind the scene and I am patient and thankful to Jolla for doing this great work. My problem is with their Nokia legacy in the mentality.
I hope you get it.
@olf
I’m using SF from this relases as daily driver, so it’s not true “totally buggy OS”. There is some problems and unfinished functions and no one regret that.
Emotional expressions are not suitable on technical forum because topics are extremely long and from user POV i need waste time for reading this.
There’s a bunch of people using a totally unusable OS happily as a daily driver.
And maybe there are others who have a certain attitude towards strong words.
Unfortunately, some of them have very pink tinted glasses on.
[Edit - 14.10.21]
I did not delete my post…?!
“Totally buggy OS”
“Best, most developed OS”
Both aren’t true.